If SRR beat Maxim.

[The Old LefHook]

Rusty already informed us that super middleweight is not a real division, at least to him it's not, and he is the one that matters. We will now have to drop that division from our considerations and our vocabularies.

Next, we are apparently set to learn the mysterious strangers that Robinson stayed busy ducking. Stranger(s), not stranger. Rusty even has a list of welterweights Robby ducked. He wanted only the easy fights, all 200+ of them. Rusty says there are some very strange names missing. Uh, let's see... everyone already knows about Burley. Could Rusty mean Williams? That must be who everyone needs on their resume if they want to be considered an AT great.

By the way, Rusty says he cannot imagine Greb or Walker losing to Maxim in 100+ degree heat. Rusty says Maxim was not even the third best light heavy in the world. Rusty says Robby did not have the fighting spirit of Greb and Walker at all. Rusty says he ducked all those people.

Who were they again, now?

If Rusty sort of sounds alone in his ideas, it is because he was the first on the scene to have them. He leads the way for human beings into uncharted territory. What others cannot make out, his perspicuity differentiates clearly for the rest of us. Get it through your heads, boys, Robinson was a big ducker. Most of his reputation is undeserved. Previous white fighters were much better and more courageous, Greb and Walker, just to name a couple.

Robinson. Phew!!

[billeau2]

Fair enough.

Or maybe it was just karma.

Again, people call Robinson the best ever for what? I really do like his performances. Probably the best ones, never caught on tape, were even more impressive still (though I think that's exaggerated). His style and flash made people turn up and open their wallets. And I really think that is actually the legacy we've inherited.

But really, compare him to Mickey Walker and Harry Greb, and are you impressed with his record? Sure, the performances were flashier, but the opposition was vastly inferior. Can you imagine Greb or Walker losing to Maxim!?

I honestly never looked at it that way. Its another dimension for sure, not quite the triangle theory that people discuss, vis a vis, the guy who beat the best lost to the second best, yada yada.

I will say this. When I first became a more informed fan of boxing I noticed a few things: I always listen... so I was more than ready to learn a few things. One such thing was when smarter guys would talk about how a fighter was really great at a weight. I had never understood this concept but it dawned on me through the years, that when we are comparing fighters in a very competative arena, and want to know them at their best, its relevant to understand, that while a great fighter can always find a way to win... Winning and being at their best is two different concepts.

It can be a fool's gold to compare something we have less information on, but I would be willing to bet The greatest version of Ray was at Welter. He would have been a big welter competing in a division with solid talent through and through. You have brought to bare elements of triangle theory by stating things like "Carpentiere was beaten by LaMotta, making LaMotta a great opponent to have beat." Or... "Ray lost to Maxim who would not have beat Greb Or Walker."

I have noticed that a lot of the so called experts do not like triangle theory...But I think it has its place. But to me, in this case, it proves that Ray was not at his best. Not in and of itself, by any means...but bare with me here. Some names: basilio, Fullmer, Bobo Olson, Graziano, La Motta...

Some other names: Gavilan, Bell, Angott, Armstrong, Zivic, beau Jack.

You see the difference? One set is talent in the Middle weight division the other the Welter weight division. I think that when we look at the set of fighters the welters are a lot stronger. We could argue that Olson or LaMotta were the best middle weights, and we can argue that Robinson was so good he found a way to win at middle weight and even...that he could not jump any higher...though many think he could have beat Maxim Rusty...Lol. But we can say that...

By comparison the names in the welter are all solid, champions who were outstanding and much better as a set. Robinson beat them consistently. Just as we can't let his flash as you put it blind us to his actual ability...We can't let the fact that he beat great ATG fighters with ease, blind us to the fact what an achievement that was.

So I understand that because he found a way to win at Middle, sometimes is such that one could say this was his toughest test. I just don't think he was the same calibre at Middle. He lost to Fullmer who was tough as nails, but hardly a great fighter.

The reason I deviated from deciding this was his toughest fight, is I feel his ability to beat great fighters routinely did not look tough, but was amazing, and a much harder thing to do than beat LaMotta. As far as who that great victory would be against? Its a toss up to me. Those guys battled each other to the ends of the earth and back again. Tough batards who fought for keeps any one of them today would walk through Crawford imo.

[Rusty Tromboni]

Rusty already informed us that super middleweight is not a real division, at least to him it's not, and he is the one that matters. We will now have to drop that division from our considerations and our vocabularies.

Next, we are apparently set to learn the mysterious strangers that Robinson stayed busy ducking. Stranger(s), not stranger. Rusty even has a list of welterweights Robby ducked. He wanted only the easy fights, all 200+ of them. Rusty says there are some very strange names missing. Uh, let's see... everyone already knows about Burley. Could Rusty mean Williams? That must be who everyone needs on their resume if they want to be considered an AT great.

By the way, Rusty says he cannot imagine Greb or Walker losing to Maxim in 100+ degree heat. Rusty says Maxim was not even the third best light heavy in the world. Rusty says Robby did not have the fighting spirit of Greb and Walker at all. Rusty says he ducked all those people.

Who were they again, now?

If Rusty sort of sounds alone in his ideas, it is because he was the first on the scene to have them. He leads the way for human beings into uncharted territory. What others cannot make out, his perspicuity differentiates clearly for the rest of us. Get it through your heads, boys, Robinson was a big ducker. Most of his reputation is undeserved. Previous white fighters were much better and more courageous, Greb and Walker, just to name a couple.

Robinson. Phew!!

Sooo it doesn't seem strange that cocoa kid, docusen, burley, Williams, Lytell, Booker, Marshall and maybe a few Light Heavyweights don't feature on his record?

As I have said before, some of the opponents people expect him to have faced, like Burley, might have never made it into the ring with Ray simply as a matter of timing. But how many times can you run that excuse before starting to question it?

You can't honestly say that Robinson had the balls and ambition of Robinson. I get it, you want attention. But there are better ways to get it.

You are a good guy, you don't need to act like this.

[Rusty Tromboni]

I honestly never looked at it that way. Its another dimension for sure, not quite the triangle theory that people discuss, vis a vis, the guy who beat the best lost to the second best, yada yada.

I will say this. When I first became a more informed fan of boxing I noticed a few things: I always listen... so I was more than ready to learn a few things. One such thing was when smarter guys would talk about how a fighter was really great at a weight. I had never understood this concept but it dawned on me through the years, that when we are comparing fighters in a very competative arena, and want to know them at their best, its relevant to understand, that while a great fighter can always find a way to win... Winning and being at their best is two different concepts.

It can be a fool's gold to compare something we have less information on, but I would be willing to bet The greatest version of Ray was at Welter. He would have been a big welter competing in a division with solid talent through and through. You have brought to bare elements of triangle theory by stating things like "Carpentiere was beaten by LaMotta, making LaMotta a great opponent to have beat." Or... "Ray lost to Maxim who would not have beat Greb Or Walker."

I have noticed that a lot of the so called experts do not like triangle theory...But I think it has its place. But to me, in this case, it proves that Ray was not at his best. Not in and of itself, by any means...but bare with me here. Some names: basilio, Fullmer, Bobo Olson, Graziano, La Motta...

Some other names: Gavilan, Bell, Angott, Armstrong, Zivic, beau Jack.

You see the difference? One set is talent in the Middle weight division the other the Welter weight division. I think that when we look at the set of fighters the welters are a lot stronger. We could argue that Olson or LaMotta were the best middle weights, and we can argue that Robinson was so good he found a way to win at middle weight and even...that he could not jump any higher...though many think he could have beat Maxim Rusty...Lol. But we can say that...

By comparison the names in the welter are all solid, champions who were outstanding and much better as a set. Robinson beat them consistently. Just as we can't let his flash as you put it blind us to his actual ability...We can't let the fact that he beat great ATG fighters with ease, blind us to the fact what an achievement that was.

So I understand that because he found a way to win at Middle, sometimes is such that one could say this was his toughest test. I just don't think he was the same calibre at Middle. He lost to Fullmer who was tough as nails, but hardly a great fighter.

The reason I deviated from deciding this was his toughest fight, is I feel his ability to beat great fighters routinely did not look tough, but was amazing, and a much harder thing to do than beat LaMotta. As far as who that great victory would be against? Its a toss up to me. Those guys battled each other to the ends of the earth and back again. Tough batards who fought for keeps any one of them today would walk through Crawford imo.

Beautfiul post.

Two thoughts:

1) Basillio is as good as anyone in your first list. Seriously, besides beating Gavilan. I'd go as far to say he's the equal or greater to Ambers, who gave Armstrong hell.

2) In between Ray-LaMotta II and VI they fought three times. i strongly suspect Ray was a "Welterweight" for at least one of those fights.

If you look, in my original post, that was my deciding factor. Gavilian and Robinson were, effectively speaking, the same size when they met, but Ray was smaller than LaMotta.

I'm too busy to reference BoxRec at the moment, but I suggest that anyone who can reference it do so. I am pretty sure Ray had at least two fights w/ LaMotta before meeting Gavilan in the ring.

[billeau2]

- -No doubt in some far, far away universe this would mean more than a snow cone tumbling into the dirt.

Your horrible!

[billeau2]

I always suspected your were messaging us from another planet.


Greetings from Earth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_SHozxzwqs

[billeau2]

Beautfiul post.

Two thoughts:

1) Basillio is as good as anyone in your first list. Seriously, besides beating Gavilan. I'd go as far to say he's the equal or greater to Ambers, who gave Armstrong hell.

2) In between Ray-LaMotta II and VI they fought three times. i strongly suspect Ray was a "Welterweight" for at least one of those fights.

If you look, in my original post, that was my deciding factor. Gavilian and Robinson were, effectively speaking, the same size when they met, but Ray was smaller than LaMotta.

I'm too busy to reference BoxRec at the moment, but I suggest that anyone who can reference it do so. I am pretty sure Ray had at least two fights w/ LaMotta before meeting Gavilan in the ring.

Basillio was excellent. You know there is an opposite principle to triangle theory...In this case you use it again stating that Basillio versus Ambers was relevant in how Ambers gave Armstrong hell. That principle is "styles make fights." I used to HATE that idea lol. It made no sense to me. It seemed defeatist to think anyone would simply accept that a style was such that it had their number, but it is a valid understanding. Anyhow I would give Basillio that position.

yes Ray was a welter for at least two of those fights. That is a good point Rusty. So did Ray beating LaMotta as a Welter change certain material facts about LaMotta compared to if he had only fought LaMotta as a Middle Weight? Yes probably so, I will concede that point. it gets complicated lol, so beating LaMotta as a Middleweight, while a Welter shows that Ray fought LaMotta at his (Ray's) best weight. That would add credability to LaMotta as a choice.

I would then have to think if LaMotta is better than the Welters that were in the division and I don't know because I am not sure whom LaMotta fought from that bunch! Something for me to look at. By the way Ray lost to laMotta as a Middle weight lol!!

Edit:
I knew this was complicated: Turns out that when Ray fought LaMotta it was as a middle weight, even before he retired and went back as a middle weight. So he went up from welter to middle to fight LaMotta.

[Rusty Tromboni]

- -No doubt in some far, far away universe this would mean more than a snow cone tumbling into the dirt.

Do you honestly believe Ray could beat GOlovkin?

Ray had a great pair of skates, and Golovkin's chin seems to be doing a hack-comedian's job of impersonating a barroom dart board. But I can't imagine Ray getting past that jab. Eventually, Golovkin's power shots will take their toll.

It's a long night for both men, but the guy w/ the tighter punching usually wins.

And again, like Tommy Hearns, Anthony Joshua, Joe Gans, Floyd Mayweather: RObinson looks super butch and sassy muscling over guys half his size. But when he loses that advantage or someone wants to push the issue he goes Chelsea. Plucked eye brows and hot pants, yeth pleassse!

[Rusty Tromboni]

Basillio was excellent. You know there is an opposite principle to triangle theory...In this case you use it again stating that Basillio versus Ambers was relevant in how Ambers gave Armstrong hell. That principle is "styles make fights." I used to HATE that idea lol. It made no sense to me. It seemed defeatist to think anyone would simply accept that a style was such that it had their number, but it is a valid understanding. Anyhow I would give Basillio that position.

yes Ray was a welter for at least two of those fights. That is a good point Rusty. So did Ray beating LaMotta as a Welter change certain material facts about LaMotta compared to if he had only fought LaMotta as a Middle Weight? Yes probably so, I will concede that point. it gets complicated lol, so beating LaMotta as a Middleweight, while a Welter shows that Ray fought LaMotta at his (Ray's) best weight. That would add credability to LaMotta as a choice.

I would then have to think if LaMotta is better than the Welters that were in the division and I don't know because I am not sure whom LaMotta fought from that bunch! Something for me to look at. By the way Ray lost to laMotta as a Middle weight lol!!

Edit:
I knew this was complicated: Turns out that when Ray fought LaMotta it was as a middle weight, even before he retired and went back as a middle weight. So he went up from welter to middle to fight LaMotta.

Basilio is a little sloppy. He compensates for lack of skill and one-shot power with guts. He really was a Walker-type fighter w/o the Walker talent. I do believe you have experience from Martial Arts w/ guys who were just THAT tough. And probably in your day you couldn't make it to the top w/o being tough.

Boxing isn't that way anymore, so people have lost perspective. And as a result dismiss Carmen. They just say Ray was old and over-confident. I'm the first o say Carmen won rounds he didn't deserve because the judges liked his gameness. It was like Japanese MMA where if you take your beating well, you get consolation points, especially if you rally back (effectively or not).

As far as Ray and Jake are concerned. There's talk, I believe supported by the Press, that some of Jake's losses were actually wins. Similarly, he'd get wins outside of NYC (where he ran afoul of the mob) for gutsy performances that could have gone the other way.

In either event, Ray won the first fight by out-boxing Jake. And loss the second by, heroically, bringing the fight to the 15 pound heavier LaMotta. That's as far as my research has taken me at this time. But I feel the first fight, LaMotta was too easy to out-box. And the last fight, LaMotta was all but done w/ Boxing.

If somewhere in between 2 and 6 Ray won, even if the same size as Jake (not bigger), wouldn't that be his best win?

Again, people (i can't remember who) have said the Abrams and Olson fights were Ray's peak. But those guys are clearly a tier below LaMotta and Gavilan.

And just a reminder about Robinson's size: before he won the Ww Championship he beat a prominent Middleweight. That tells me he was depending on his size advantage against Gavilan.

[joeandthebums]

As far as Ray and Jake are concerned. There's talk, I believe supported by the Press, that some of Jake's losses were actually wins. Similarly, he'd get wins outside of NYC (where he ran afoul of the mob) for gutsy performances that could have gone the other way.

The third depending on how you scored a fight was considered close and again their fifth. No outcries of robberies, just close fights.

And just a reminder about Robinson's size: before he won the Ww Championship he beat a prominent Middleweight. That tells me he was depending on his size advantage against Gavilan.

Robinson had an advantage against Gavilan, it was slight, but in almost all his contests at WW he had the height or reach advantage.

RObinson looks super butch and sassy muscling over guys half his size. But when he loses that advantage or someone wants to push the issue he goes Chelsea. Plucked eye brows and hot pants, yeth pleassse!

Don't quite understand this point.

Sooo it doesn't seem strange that cocoa kid, docusen, burley, Williams, Lytell, Booker, Marshall and maybe a few Light Heavyweights don't feature on his record.

Robinson did meet Docusen? Timeframe makes facing Cocoa Kid and Burley a possibility. Others are fanciful suggestions.