Why todays era is better than past eras. Discussion.

[billeau2]

So after more than 400 fights, amateur (at the highest level) and pro, Loma isn't fully seasoned? How much seasoning does a guy need?

I would say "no" he is not. For a number of reasons B:

1) The goals are different, not necessarily better, or worse... But aiming to hit with as many punches in a 3 round format is not the same as the strategy needed to come out on top in a 12 round contest.

2) The Ammy style is limited ... it is a linear style predicated on hitting the opponent with as many punches as possible with the top of the glove. The professional ranks have many styles, angles, techniques that are not part of ammy fighing. A seasoned fighter learns to cut the ring, angle, fight at all ranges, etc. You have Mexican styled fighting, which leads with a hook... for example.

I will concede that some ammy programs are very "wise" in how they prepare a fighter... always loved the Cubans!

meant to also say Loma never had to deal with an opponent who he could hit, and would best in a 3 rounder that could impose himself on Loma and damage him

[QueensburyRules]

Doing anything frequently, for a long time, allows you to reach levels of mastery that you can't get any other way.

Lomachenko is still lacking in some areas for example as proven in the Teofimo Lopez fight. He isn't fully seasoned.

- -Two bum shoulder surgeries + about 450 fights foretells The End sooner than later.

He was great for exposing pro boxing farces while on his game and more importantly the people loved him.

HOF bound.

[BattlingNelson]

It's a good bump. Interesting opinions from both sides. I may disagree about some things, but it's a thread that makes you think and take other things into consideration. Thanks for bumping it.

Indeed. See my OP for exactly that where I had a .... revalation may be to strong a word, but you know what I mean.

[BattlingNelson]

And there will always be a very small percentage capable of elite athlete/fighter status. That small percentage has a lot more options...

Yeah but in absolute terms, this small percentage is so much larger now than 50-70-100 years ago.

Its a fair point Batts but it is not that simple. There are more fight venues, etc...

Here is another way to look at it: The Chinese have a lot more people than the United States... Where are all the Chinese boxers?

Boxing isn't big in every country. Boxing was big in the eastern bloc from 1950-1990 but only on an AM level. The competion among pros raised considerably following the fall of the iron curtain. A huge influx of major talent made it much much harder for boxers from the old traditional boxing nations to continue their dominance.

Some may say that's because of so many other sports have drained the talent pool from those nations, which is an opinion for sure even though I havent seen any statistic backing up that claim yet.

Others may say that that the eastern bloc influx led to more competion and therefore better quality of fighters being top dogs of the divisions.

[Bundana]

Here is another way to look at it: The Chinese have a lot more people than the United States... Where are all the Chinese boxers?

We could also ask: Where are all the US badminton players? Why is such a big country completely invisible on the international badminton scene?

The answer is of course tradition! Badminton has never been a big sport in the US (unlike in China, where it's huge)... so there's not a steady stream of talent coming forward.

In China boxing has never been big - but it could change in the future. Already now lots of Chinese are turning pro, and all they need is a Pacquiao type making it big. Someone the whole nation will follow and be proud of... then we may see the sport really kick off!

[billeau2]

We could also ask: Where are all the US badminton players? Why is such a big country completely invisible on the international badminton scene?

The answer is of course tradition! Badminton has never been a big sport in the US (unlike in China, where it's huge)... so there's not a steady stream of talent coming forward.

In China boxing has never been big - but it could change in the future. Already now lots of Chinese are turning pro, and all they need is a Pacquiao type making it big. Someone the whole nation will follow and be proud of... then we may see the sport really kick off!

I agree with that. I think that has an influence on actual numbers as well. Not just: people who enter boxing which I would argue is irrelevant. You can find combative training in Shanghai that is top notch, I know this from Youtube.

Yet when we get to that funnel, and we wind up with the best Chinese boxers, the numbers are still relatively small. Why would that be? My point here is that you can find state of the art training and support for a career as a boxer in China... And if numbers were what it was about we would expect to see many more Chinese prospects because of the same mechanism batts has proposed: Any geographical state with significantly more people will produce MORE... period. More people who are smarter, slower, faster, slower, bigger, smaller, etc.

Obviously there are other things at work that make a professional prize fighter a very rare commodity. I do not think we have the pure numbers that would be the tide that lifts all boats... and give an influx of talent into boxing that would make for better boxing.

[billeau2]

Yeah but in absolute terms, this small percentage is so much larger now than 50-70-100 years ago.


Boxing isn't big in every country. Boxing was big in the eastern bloc from 1950-1990 but only on an AM level. The competion among pros raised considerably following the fall of the iron curtain. A huge influx of major talent made it much much harder for boxers from the old traditional boxing nations to continue their dominance.

Some may say that's because of so many other sports have drained the talent pool from those nations, which is an opinion for sure even though I havent seen any statistic backing up that claim yet.

Others may say that that the eastern bloc influx led to more competion and therefore better quality of fighters being top dogs of the divisions.

But Boxing is big enough that you consider more talent to be in the ranks. My point was there are also filters that limit elite talent, for better, or for worse...

Competition, numbers, and a desire to embrace boxing are relevant, but I believe that they are conditional and not absolute. I don't know if we will ever have the unique circumstances that made fighters so great ever again. I don't know that we won't either.

I do agree with you that the numbers, the competition is a factor in creating great fighters. I mean there is evidence of this with the eastern bloc fighters.

[Bundana]

I agree with that. I think that has an influence on actual numbers as well. Not just: people who enter boxing which I would argue is irrelevant. You can find combative training in Shanghai that is top notch, I know this from Youtube.

Yet when we get to that funnel, and we wind up with the best Chinese boxers, the numbers are still relatively small. Why would that be? My point here is that you can find state of the art training and support for a career as a boxer in China... And if numbers were what it was about we would expect to see many more Chinese prospects because of the same mechanism batts has proposed: Any geographical state with significantly more people will produce MORE... period. More people who are smarter, slower, faster, slower, bigger, smaller, etc.

Obviously there are other things at work that make a professional prize fighter a very rare commodity. I do not think we have the pure numbers that would be the tide that lifts all boats... and give an influx of talent into boxing that would make for better boxing.

Just because there's a ****load of people in China, why would we expect them to produce a lot of great fighters... if the tradition isn't there?

[DeeMoney]

Just because there's a ****load of people in China, why would we expect them to produce a lot of great fighters... if the tradition isn't there?

This was what I was trying to say earlier. Look at US Men's Soccer. The US has more than one-and-a-half times the population of Germany, Britain, and France combined; yet each of those countries are significantly better than the US at that sport.

Its not as if the US is a 3rd world nation that can't support athletes, and there are plenty of opportunities and lots of money being put into development. But the point is most of the top athletes in the US are pursuing other sports.

If most of your top athletes are doing something else, this can counter a large population.

[billeau2]

Just because there's a ****load of people in China, why would we expect them to produce a lot of great fighters... if the tradition isn't there?

To me? If I can go to a major city and find a state of the art facility, the tradition exists... I think there is an avid boxing community in China. So I think it is there.