my top 35 heavyweights of all time

[SuzieQ49]

Besides Charles and Ray, what great fighters did Walcott beat? An old Joe Louis, if you're counting the first fight as a loss...that's it. So, in Walcott's "prime", against Louis, Charles, & Marciano, this all time great went 2-6. That's not a good argument.

first of all, the 1947 version of joe louis that walcott beat was still a great fighter. i think that 1947 version of louis would have beat evander holyfield. remember, louis was fighting a ****load of exhibitions during the war years, but when he came back he still showed he had his power and punching arsenal by flattening conn and mauriello plus he was bigger and stronger.
the reasons why joe louis was past his prime was because he was slower, and his reflexes and timing were defintley slower. however, he still had very goodhandspeed and that combo he knocked walcott out with was possibly the best sequence of punches a fighters ever thrown. so this first fight which should have been a walcott victory is a HUGE win. the 46-48 version of louis was still a great fighter.

-louis aged DRAMATICALLY after the walcott fights.


-walcott twice beat a top 15 heavyweight of all time in ezzard charles, THATS A HUGE DEAL. he was also the only man to knockout a prime ezzard charles and he did so with ONE PUNCH!


what other great fighters did he beat besides charles, louis?

- he beat top 50 heavyweight IMO and one of the most dangerous and best heavyweights of the 1940s elmer "violent" ray

- he beat HALL OF FAMER jimmy bivins, whos argueably top 50 heavyweight of all time. he also beat bivins at his peak in 1946 when bivins hadnt lossed in 3 years. THIS IS A HUGE VICTORY, bivins was the duration heavyweight champ during war years and many people considered him the # 1 heavyweight besides joe louis.

- he beat Hall of famer harold johnson knocking him out in 3 rounds. johnson hurt his back in this fight, but walcott had already knocked johnson down and had been beating him up before the stoppage. just to let u know on how good the johnson victory is, harold johnson beat eddie machen top 50 heavyweight of all time

- He twice beat Hall of famer light-H joey maxim. Maxim was in the contender scene at both light-H and heavyweight in the 1940s and was rated # 10 heavyweight contender by the RING MAGAZINE when walcott beat him. maxim later went on to become light-H champion. maxim was a master boxer with a granite chin.

- he easily outboxed and beat 6'2 220lb Joe Baski, a top heavyweight contender of the 1940s. Baksi was a skilled big man who was very strong and used his size well. Baksi was the # 4 rated heavyweight contender by the RING MAGAZINE when walcott beat him.

- he beat lee Q murray- a top heavyweight contender of the 1940s. Lee Q murray was one of the highly avoided dangerous black heavyweights who no one wanted to fight. Lee Q murray was big and strong, and was a dangerous puncher. lee Q was rated # 2 contender by RING MAGAZINE at the time

- he beat curtis hatchetman sheppard- another one of the highly avoided dangerous black contenders of the 1940s. sheppard was a WICKED HITTER, one of the hardest punchers of that era. no one wanted to fight sheppard. sheppard was the only man to ever knockout joey maxim, and he did so with 1 punch! walcott climbed off the floor in this fight to knockout sheppard in 10 rounds. sheppard was rated # 6 contender by RING MAGAZINE at the time.

- He beat Tommy Gomez a top 10 contender, who was considered one of the hardest punchers of that era like sheppard. Gomez was a devastating puncher, and at anytime in the fight if u got carelss, he could put u out with one punch. walcott knocked gomez out in 3.


- he beat Willie Reddish- a top 10 contender and one of the highly avoided black heavyweights of the 30s-40s. Reddish is a unkown fighter, but he was very good and beat some good fighters during his career. walcott outboxed reddish early in his career.


walcotts competition break down:

HE BEAT 5 HALL OF FAMERS: Ezzard charles, joey maxim, harold johnson, jimmy bivins, joe louis(first fight)

he beat great heavyweights: Joe Louis and Ezzard Charles

He beat very good fighters/top contender heavyweights: elmer ray, harold johnson, jimmy bivins, Lee Q Murray

he beat good solid top 10 rated heavyweights: Curtis Sheppard, Joe Baski, Lee Oma, joey maxim, Tommy Gomez, big Ollie Tandberg, Willie Reddish, Omelio agramonte, undefeated 6'5 220lb hein ten hoff.

thats a damm fine win resume if u ask me!





i dont know if u see walcott on film, but on film he looks incredible. hes very fast in his hands and feet, elusive, has the best footwork in history, hes very tricky and unpredictable, very good counterpuncher, one of the best heavyweight ring technicians of all time, very good jab, very hard puncher in both hands(especially left hook), top notch ring smarts, his combinations are fast and accurate, hes strong, very good inside fighter, fairly good size 6'0 197lb.

i mean how in gods name is he overated?




u say he went 2-6 vs those guys but thats misleading because he was robbed vs louis so its really 3-5. plus he also beat charles TWICE, so that cancels out the losses, he went 1-1 with joe louis, and he nearly beat rocky in the 1st fight.

[SuzieQ49]

But, he was a huge underdog when he took Louis to school in the firt fight....which undoubedtly had the same effect on his reputation as the Tyson win did on Douglas before he quit against Holyfield. Remember how everyone was singing Douglas's praises.....substitute Walcott.

Kdog,

Yes. Due to ignorance at the time he was thought of as an overpromoted journeyman. History would prove otherwise. They tended not to recognise the potential of the black contenders. Guys like Ray and Turkey Thompson were seen as ham n eggers for much of their careers. John Henry Lewis and Jimmy Bivins were seen as bona fide contenders. Walcott was not recognised even after the Louis fights in many quaters. Gene Tunney said that if he had got the decision he would have been a lame duck champion. Today of course many people on this board see him as Louis's best oponent. I think his late career reign as champion and ironicaly the first Marciano fight which he lost got him his due credit.



did u know that walcott once was louis sparring partner in 1936, and walcott was kicked out of camp for flooring joe louis?

After the initial Louis fight, Walcott was knocked out in the rematch

after which he knocked louis down again and was well ahead on points until joe louis knocked him out. louis is the greatest puncher of all time, no shame there!

puts up a helluva fight against Marciano while going out on his shield (further enhancing the Walcott myth)

or further proving how great he was







- i doubt u have seen walcott on film. because theres no one i know thats seen walcott on film and hasnt been impressed


- u need to read up more on walcott and watch him on film. if u knew about his early career, you would have a lot more sympathy for him. he got a lot of bad breaks. however he finally met up with felix boccichio, which was a dream come true for walcott. also if u knew more about walcotts era, u would realize he beat some darn good top contenders.

[smasher]

:

HE BEAT 5 HALL OF FAMERS: Ezzard charles, joey maxim, harold johnson, jimmy bivins, joe louis(first fight)

He lost two lopsided decisions to Charles getting 9 counted in one of them. Walcott should never have been granted a third fight based on his poor showing in fight #2.

He was outpointed and defeated by light-heavyweight Joey Maxim.

He defeated a young light-heavyweight Johnson due to Johnson collapsing and being unable to continue with a legitimate and verified back injury.

He lost to Bivins on 2 of 3 scorecards. Because he floored once Bivins he was granted the win on points.

He lost to Joe Louis twice getting 10 counted in one of those losses.

[SuzieQ49]

He lost two lopsided decisions to Charles getting 9 counted in one of them.

He was outpointed by light-heavyweight Joey Maxim.

He defeated a young light-heavyweight Johnson due to Johnson collapsing and being unable to continue with a verified back injury

He lost to Bivins on 2 of 3 scorecards. Because he floored once Bivins he was granted the win on points.

He lost to Joe Louis twice getting 10 counted in one of those losses.

- they werent lopsided as u think. the scores dont tell the fight. the first fight was a very tactical battle and charles got the better of walcott about 9 rounds to 6 or 10 rounds 5.

- the 2nd fight was the most action packed fight, and walcott hurt charles throuhout the bout. charles won about 10 rounds to 5. whats the difference between being floored in a 9 count and a 1 count? walcott could have gotten up at 2 but hes a smart fighter and waited till 9. also that left hook counterpunch charles hit walcott with was one of the best thrown punches i have ever seen.


however walcott also twice beat charles, and scored a knockout over charles so walcotts KO win over charles in the 2-2 series snaps the tiebreaker. walcott outboxed charles in the 3rd and 4th fights becuase he was more aggresive and let his hands go more, something he never did in the 1st and 2nd fights.

He was outpointed by light-heavyweight Joey Maxim.

bad decision, most thought walcott won. walcott also beat maxim twice

He lost to Bivins on 2 of 3 scorecards. Because he floored once Bivins he was granted the win on points.

so wut, under modern rules walcott would also win because of the knockdown. walcott won fair and square, knockdowns count for a lot in boxing. bivins was at his peak and hadnt lossed in 3 years when walcott beat him. bivins was a master boxer.

He defeated a young light-heavyweight Johnson due to Johnson collapsing and being unable to continue with a verified back injury

i got sources that tell me othewise. walcott knocked johnson down in the 2nd and had him out on his feet in the 3rd before johnson collasped hurting his back

He lost to Joe Louis twice getting 10 counted in one of those losses.

[/QUOTE]

he was robbed vs joe louis. did evander holyfield really draw with lennox lewis?


- louis is the greatest puncher of all time.

[smasher]

How do you know Johnson didn't enter the ring with his back already injured? Maybe that explains how Walcott was able to floor him.

In any event he lost to all of the hall of famers he fought (excepting a young, inexperienced, injured, light-heavyweight Johnson).

Walcott's wins over Maxim were by split decision and majority decision, pretty close fights with a light-heavyweight.

In the 70's and even 80's fights were still being scored in some states on the rounds system. Walkcott loses to Bivins had the fight taken place under those rules.

In other fights with ranked contenders Walcott was stopped by contenders Tiger Jack Fox, Abe Simon, and Al Ettore and dropped a convincing decision to Rex Layne.

Please tell me how Walcott was granted a 3rd title fight after being dominated by Charles and then being solidly outpointed by Lane.

Did I mention losing to 8-12 Johnny Allen during this time?

[SuzieQ49]

How do you know Johnson didn't enter the ring with his back already injured? Maybe that explains how Walcott was able to floor him.

In any event he lost to all of the hall of famers he fought (excepting a young, inexperienced, injured, light-heavyweight Johnson).

Walcott's wins over Maxim were by split decision and majority decision, pretty close fights with a light-heavyweight.

In the 70's and even 80's fights were still being scored in some states on the rounds system. Walkcott loses to Bivins had the fight taken place under those rules.

In other fights with ranked contenders Walcott was stopped by contenders Tiger Jack Fox, Abe Simon, and Al Ettore and dropped a convincing decision to Rex Layne.

Please tell me how Walcott was granted a 3rd title fight after being dominated by Charles and then being solidly outpointed by Lane.

Did I mention losing to 8-12 Johnny Allen during this time?

smasher,


from the sources i got, it stated how johnson didnt hurt his back till the 3rd round. walcott floored johnson in the 2nd.

perhaps maybe on that first knockdown, when johnson fell to the floor he hurt his back?

In any event he lost to all of the hall of famers he fought (excepting a young, inexperienced, injured, light-heavyweight Johnson).

walcott also BEAT every hall of famer he faced, besides marciano


woa woa. dont say that. johnson was a far better fighter in the early 1950s. he was far past his prime by the time he finally won the world title.

when johnson fought walcott, he was 28-1 and had beaten jimmy bivins with his only loss being a close one to archie moore. JUST ONE YEAR LATER, HAROLD JOHNSON BEAT MOORE.

Walcott's wins over Maxim were by split decision and majority decision, pretty close fights with a light-heavyweight.

ive got newspaper reports on the fights, email me if u want to see them.

- as far as i know, the AP had walcott winning all 3 fights. the 2nd and 3rd fights were considered to be clear decisions for walcott, despite one judge voting different.


heres the judges scores in the 2nd walcott-maxim fight

2 judges scored walcott 6 rounds to 3 1 even

1 judge 5-5 even


AP scored it 6 rounds to 3 walcott with 1 even


"the camden negro, thus avenged a loss to maxim he suffered last summer, in which the clevelander won an UNPOPULAR DECISION."- New York Times




3rd walcott-maxim fight

walcott won another clear decision according to ringsiders and AP

In the 70's and even 80's fights were still being scored in some states on the rounds system. Walkcott loses to Bivins had the fight taken place under those rules.

under the rules he was fighting in, he won. he beat bivins. he knocked him down. thats a 10-8 round today

In other fights with ranked contenders Walcott was stopped by contenders Tiger Jack Fox, Abe Simon, and Al Ettore and dropped a convincing decision to Rex Layne.

Please tell me how Walcott was granted a 3rd title fight after being dominated by Charles and then being solidly outpointed by Lane.

you know the circumstances about the tiger jack fox, abe simon, al ettore fights. they should not be held against him.


i will explain why walcott got a 3rd title shot later

[Mike Tyson77]

IT WAS LANGFORD, NOT JACK JOHNSON, WHO DOMINATED THE ERA. WHY? LANGFORD BEAT THE BEST CHALLENGERS OUT THERE ON A CONSISTENT BASIS. johnson ducked the best challengers out there. IN ESSENCE, it was sam langford who cleaned up the heavyweight division during johnson's reign. NOT JACK JOHNSON.

I also remember Jack Johnson beating the crap out of Sam Langford. They did fight, if you remember. Johnson won a 20 round UD knocking Langford down twice.

[sleazyfellow]

I also remember Jack Johnson beating the crap out of Sam Langford. They did fight, if you remember. Johnson won a 20 round UD knocking Langford down twice.

he did beat the crap outta langford but i think there was more of a weight issue cause langford at the time was 40 pounds r sumthing below johnson, remember it was back in the day and they didnt mind matching middleweights against hw

[smasher]

Did I mention losing to 8-12 Johnny Allen during this time?

SuzieQ49,

"Outboxing and outpunching the slower yet more experienced Walcott, Allen cruised to a solid victory. At the final bell Walcott trudged wearily to his corner while Allen appeared fresh as if he could have fought several more. It was Allen's greatest moment in his career."

-JOHNNY ALLEN-BOXING'S FORGOTTEN HEAVYWEIGHT
by James Randall Lahey
Pendant books 1966

[SuzieQ49]

SuzieQ49,

"Outboxing and outpunching the slower yet more experienced Walcott, Allen cruised to a solid victory. At the final bell Walcott trudged wearily to his corner while Allen appeared fresh as if he could have fought several more. It was Allen's greatest moment in his career."

-JOHNNY ALLEN-BOXING'S FORGOTTEN HEAVYWEIGHT
by James Randall Lahey
Pendant books 1966

thats great stuff, thanx for sharing that. times were different back then, who knows what was going on with walcott at the time. all we know is that was walcotts 3rd fight back from a 4 year retirment. things were hard and lots of foul business was going on during that time.

could walcott have taken a dive in this fight? if not, how do u explain the reason walcott was able to beat the **** out of allen easily in the following 2 fights?



would u like to explain to me why walcott was 182lb for this fight considering in his other fights he was over 190lb? was walcott perhaps very malnourished and weak for this fight?

it says walcott was "slow and and truged wearily at the bell"

perhaps that only furthers my example walcott was very weight drained and it affected his stamina and preformance. he weighed just 182lb for this fight.


- sure this is an embarrasing mark on walcotts record. BUT

A. he dominated allen in there next 2 meetings including knock out

B. it was his third fight back from a 4 year retirment and he weighed just 182lb for this fight, WHICH IS VERY SKETCHKY considering in his next fights he would be weighing in at around 195lb. this could very well mean he was horribly weight drained.

C. lots of foul business and scandels going around at the time. walcott was a black fight. he could have thrown this fight on purpose.


THIS ALLEN LOSS WAS BEFORE HE MET FELIX BOCCHICHIO AND STARTED TO GET TO GO TO BED WITH A MEAL IN HIS STOMACH EVERYNIGHT AND HAVE WORLD CLASS TRAINING. ever think about that?