who beat better competiton liston or marciano?

[SuzieQ49]

Patterson was the better heavyweight than Williams in terms of accomplishments and talents but man did he freeze against Liston. No way did he fight his best in that fight. He was just not in his element against a big intimidating heavy punching heavyweight like Liston. Williams fought back hard and tested Liston's chin and that's why I consider the wins over Williams as being more impressive. The Patterson who fought Liston (both times) was not the same one who nearly killed Ingo and bombed out Moore. It's like judging Golota entirely by the way he was KO'ed in one round against Lewis. Patterson did not fight to his best potential against Liston IMO.

Patterson was the better fighter than Williams when you compare their careers but against Liston, Patterson did not perform like the better fighter.

i couldnt agree with u more! solid post!

[smasher]

Patterson was the better fighter than Williams when you compare their careers but against Liston, Patterson did not perform like the better fighter.

This could be a whole different thread. What if Patterson had not been protected by Cus D'Amato in his choice of contenders he faced? Would we even consider him as a champion worthy of a comparison to Ezzard Charles?

Check out his title defences. Hurricane Jackson who he had already defeated, Pete Radamcher in his pro debut, Roy Harris, Brian London, Ingo X3 and Tom McNeeley. Before getting demolished by Liston. Ouch.

We know D'Amato wanted no part of Floyd fighting Liston so how would Patterson have fared in title defences against Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Nino Valdes, Eddie Machen, Mike Dejohn, Doug Jones etc...all who were better than Patterson's competition as champion.

[butterfly1964]

can u imagine ezzard charles being knocked out by ingemar johannsen?

of course. other people ko'd charles who were alot worse than johannson.

[SuzieQ49]

What does everyone think about some of the fringe contenders/journeyman/young prospects that marciano and liston beat?


for marciano: tiger ted lowry, phil muscato, lee savold, carmine vingo, freddie beshore, bernie renolds, johnny skhor, big bill wilson, keene simmons, eddie ross



for liston: marty marshall, albert westphal, johhny summerlin, willie besmanoff, amos lincoln, chuck wepner, scrapiron johnson, gerhad zhech, bert whitehurst, henry clark, emile brtko




ill do a post later about some of these guys, since many of the 50s heavyweights are understudied and unknown

[SuzieQ49]

of course. other people ko'd charles who were alot worse than johannson.

in charles prime?? I DONT THINK SO


check out the years 1946-54, was charles ever knocked out by someone has bad as johannsen?

[butterfly1964]

in charles prime?? I DONT THINK SO


check out the years 1946-54, was charles ever knocked out by someone has bad as johannsen?

johannson is not that bad. and patterson didn't really take him seriously. think of it as sort of like lewis-rahman I. but in the rematch, you know what happened.

[SuzieQ49]

This could be a whole different thread. What if Patterson had not been protected by Cus D'Amato in his choice of contenders he faced? Would we even consider him as a champion worthy of a comparison to Ezzard Charles?

Check out his title defences. Hurricane Jackson who he had already defeated, Pete Radamcher in his pro debut, Roy Harris, Brian London, Ingo X3 and Tom McNeeley. Before getting demolished by Liston. Ouch.

We know D'Amato wanted no part of Floyd fighting Liston so how would Patterson have fared in title defences against Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley, Nino Valdes, Eddie Machen, Mike Dejohn, Doug Jones etc...all who were better than Patterson's competition as champion.

patterson did win the title from archie moore in a big upset. archie moore was a better heavyweight than all of those guys u mentioned(excluding liston).

moore wasnt fully prepared and sought for a rematch but never got one.

i think a rematch would have been a very close fight, but i think moore does not matchup well vs patterson and would end up getting knocked out.

however, in there fight moore was outboxing patterson. on the scorecards, two judges had moore winning by a shutout.


another fighter who should have got a shot at pattersons title was harold johnson. harold johnson shutout nino valdes, and in 1961 when far past his prime johnson beat eddie machen.


btw, cleveland williams was never rated in the top 10 during pattersons title reign. interesting fact huh? fact is, cleveland williams was avoided and had to fight many journeyman and as a result, didnt get a high rating due to his lack of competition.

its funny cause cleveland williams was one of the best heavyweights in the world, yet he wasnt rated in the top 10 by the RING.



out of pattersons title defenses,

hurricane jackson was the only one who deserved a shot. he had a close 12 rounder with patterson a year earlier, so patterson had to remove all doubts. and patterson literally destroyed hurricane jackson. he won all 9 rounds before stopping him in 10. jackson took such a beating his liscense was suspended. hurricane jackson was a very good contender himself, 6'3 195 80" reach and he was somewut of a crazy durable nut, but also he could box.








however, bottom line is it was cus d amato who ducked these guys, not patterson.


i have no doubt patterson would have destroyed all the fighters you mentioned above.


glass jaw folley would have been stopped within 5



i will not even respond to machen. patterson showed when he fought machen who the superior fighter is. machen GOT THE **** KICKED OUT OF HIM for 12 straight rounds. it wasnt even a fight. patterson knocked him down 4 or 5 times and left machens face loooking like he went through a meat grinder. patterson even carried machen in the last rounds cause he felt bad for eddie. to say machen was outclassed would be an understatement.

be thankful for eddies sake and eddies fans sake that a fight between him and patterson did not happen in late 50s.



cleveland williams was a big powerful slugger who would be dangerous fight, but I believe patterson would win. cleveland williams was wild and had poor defense at times and his chin was very dentable. Williams had trouble with boxers like machen, terrell(rematch) and I feel a more skilled, faster, and more powerful patterson would outpoint or knockout williams



nino valdes was past his prime in late 50s. this would have been a one sided massacre win for patterson.


archie moore rematch? I think this fight would have been very close. moore gave patterson fits until the knockout and moore did not come into that fight 100%. however I think pattersons combination of speed and power is too much for moore. I see him knocking out moore again or winning a close decision. moore always claimed he would have won the rematch.


harold johnson- another very close fight. johnson was a masterboxer and a smart clever fighter. johnson was very hard to hit, however his chin was vunerable and that would be his downfall in this fight. patterson was a great puncher and threw very accurate and sharp combinations, and of course he had godly like handspeed for a heavyweiht. i see patterson by KO.




I think had D amato no patterson so much, floyd would have beat better competiton and would be rated higher today. he had the talent.



look what patterson did when he was aging, he was robbed against jerry quarry 2x and jimmy ellis(horrible decision). even at 37, patterson beat oscar bonavena.

[SuzieQ49]

johannson is not that bad. and patterson didn't really take him seriously. think of it as sort of like lewis-rahman I. but in the rematch, you know what happened.

of course hes not that bad. johannsen often gets underated today. he was a very good heavyweight

think of it as sort of like lewis-rahman I

no because johannsen was A HELLUVA LOT better than rahman! plus rahman knocked lewis out with 1 punch, it took johannsen 7 knockdowns.



also u forget the 3rd fight where johannsen nearly knocked out patterson AGAIN

[butterfly1964]

of course hes not that bad. johannsen often gets underated today. he was a very good heavyweight






no because johannsen was A HELLUVA LOT better than rahman! plus rahman knocked lewis out with 1 punch, it took johannsen 7 knockdowns.



also u forget the 3rd fight where johannsen nearly knocked out patterson AGAIN

well, almost don't cut it.

[RockyMarcianofan00]

Oh damn; get ready for the controversy haha. I predict Smasher and Butterfly arguing against NextRocky and Rockyfan with some posts by myself thrown into the mix. I'm not even going to post my opinion because either way I'll be racist . I'll see how the thread goes first.
But it is a good thread!

ha ha, this how you know you've read to many threads

anyway, i wonder who i'm gunna pick, the only really good hw that liston beat was Patterson (IMO)

Marciano beat a prime, walcott and Moore

he also beat fighters like Layne,LaStarza,Ezzard Charles, etc

i'd have to say Marciano's comptetion was better
Liston was good but 75% of his fame came from losing to a young prospect that talked crazy and said that he was the greatest, Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali)

not to say Liston wasn't good but i just don't rank them the same