Is Dempsey still a top 10 ATG Heavyweight in 2014?

[Ray Corso]

"old timers" I pay less attention to younger fans!!!!
Now if your talking about people like Ray Arcel then pay attention fans because he was an outstanding trainer who knew Methods & Techniques and most ALL fans have NO Clue about how to develop a fighter and what a trainer looks for "inside" a fighter!

It's funny when the young guys say the old timers think the past is the best yet they think the current guys are the best. Imagine someone thinking that David Haye could win let alone go the distance with Ali. Also Ali is to small when he's bigger than Haye not that it means anything. Some fellows have physical advantages but have no clue how to utilize them.

Great punchers will almost always win against great boxers because it's only one ,move that could change the fight. The great Pep had problems with the biggest puncher at feather and Pep could box circles around everyone else.

Dempsey, Marciano, Foreman, Shavers, Tyson would all have their shots against anyone when they were prime and non of those men were excellent boxers. Power is a luxury in the game of boxing but remember there's timing distances and understanding that bottom is as important to top. Theres a discipline that must be held high as a pressure fighter or you will standing up into shots as you close ground. The fact that a pressure fighter isn't recognized as a talented fighter is why most fans don't know diddle about boxing. They think a guy like Ali who was outstanding on the move was highly skilled and he was but Joe Frazier had him measured and stepped in and under to work and there's very few who recognize Frazier's methods as being talented.

Again if you don't consider the "size of the fight in the dog" and just look at size you've never been in the ring to be able to understand the intangibles that win big fights!

Imagine someone not considering what Ray Arcel has to say about boxing?
Ray.

[jack p]

I agree Arcel who was born in 1899 wasn-t no wide-eyed fan..He was a trainer for decades..He was Durans trainer in his book he said
"When people talk about the greatest heavyweight Dempsey should be the only guy anyone thinks about. The night he beat Willard. Who was better then that? He could box he could punch ,he could take a punch.He was mean and determined"

We wouldn't be discussing this if Dempsey had never been..But to rest is to rust and after he had the title inactivity caused rust..Dempseys style depends on being active often ,to be effective..Rickard didn't want Dempsey against Willard He thought Jack to small.I
mean Willard killed a man with a uppercut ..Willard like many white hopes was a "Klitschco"
big guys to beat Johnson... couldn't do it with a smaller fighyer...But Dempsey slaughtered them all..he was the only contender..Dempseys older brothers were professional fighters
When Jack was 6 he was soaking his fists and face in brine to make it leathery..Chewing pine gum to make his jaw tough ..his brothers were training hm as soon as he could walk
Counting exhibitions warm up bouts Dempsey had over 60 fights before he even fought for the title

Yeah he will always be top ten at his very best he was top five easy ..But fom the years 1918 -1926 he was at his best maybe just 3 of them ..To much inactivity..He was only at his best when always fighting..The break Ali took when he was banned in the 60s.Came back still really good ..Dempsey couldnt have done that..He would have more rust
As good as Ali was at 24 and still as good at 33...Dempsey was top notch at 24 but at 33 he was done...Tunney the boxer who beat Dempsey only lost one fight out of 70 something...

[Joeyzagz]

***8220;Mike Tyson might have got through a round with Dempsey, maybe two. People always asked me what Jack***8217;s weaknesses were. That***8217;s the point ***8211; he didn***8217;t have any.***8221;

Former heavyweight champ Jack Sharkey expressed similar sentiments in a 1986 interview. Mike Tyson had just surged to the head of the division and Sharkey said of Mike, ***8220;There is only one heavyweight that I can see who would fit into the old school and that***8217;s Tyson. They***8217;re all cream puff punchers today except Tyson, and his secret is that he doesn***8217;t waste many punches.***8221;

Then Sharkey turned his attention to Dempsey and others ***8220;Jack Dempsey was the best because he was a real fighter, and if he hit you in the shoulder he could dislocate it."
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...seyFeature.htm

Now. I'm not saying that Arcel's opinion is the gold standard and that we should all bow down to him. But... here's someone who saw Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman and Tyson and ranks Dempsey pretty high. (understatement).

Great insights! But I think the old film footage is the main reason Jack is over-rated. Before 1919 no one had ever seen vivid brutal savagery like that captured on film. It was the first of its kind and left a lasting impression on all who saw it.

. But Dempsey was eventually emasculated by a superior Light-Heavyweight. 60 years later Tyson suffered the same fate. Tyson/Dempsey have ATG highlight reels for their respective eras, not ATG careers.

[jack p]

. But Dempsey was eventually emasculated by a superior Light-Heavyweight. 60 years later Tyson suffered the same fate. Tyson/Dempsey have ATG highlight reels for their respective eras, not ATG careers.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but Dempsey always had problems against smaller guys..Well for
one Dempsey needed to get set to nail someone ..Not so easy against
a smaller fast boxer whose quick on his feet and isn't afraid of Dempsey or his rushes
Now against a big guy like Willard 6'6" 245 lbs ..Morris 6'4" 225 and Fulton
6'6" They get slaughtered..Fulton who retired in 33 compiled a record
of 84 wins 70 by knockout..19 losses and 4 draws...Dempsey slaughtered him in seconds

Where Dempsey was hardest to beat was the punchout..When asked why he picked Dempsey over Louis...Fleischer said while the both had about the same punching
power Dempsey was faster and could take a punch on the chin better.While i agree with
Nat on Dempsey being faster and taking a punch better... While Louis punched easily as hard.. .I think louis was the more accurate puncher ..Dempsey's were more wild sloping punches..They were like a broken windmill ..They would clear a path.
.Look at Dempsey's fight with Willard how he springs back when Willard extends his glove... his ability to back-up before he came forward..You don't see that in his later fights..Also you don't see other hitters like Louis, Liston, Frazier those guys can't backup.

.Dempsey in prime years 1918-1919 was just quicker on his feet then those other great punchers who came after him....God i love boxing and its participants .All of hese guys had certain qualitys that were special...If someone thinks Ali will beat Louis I see why they do and visa-versa..But i think a prime Dempsey or Louis would slaughter the Klitschco's just like they did Willard or Carnera..I mean we saw what Sanders did to Wladimar ..If Sanders was another Dempsey or Louis that would have happened to his brother Vitaly .