Is Dempsey still a top 10 ATG Heavyweight in 2014?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

That's the way I see it when I look at the film. But what do you take of guys (professionals - boxers, trainers, etc...) who saw him, Schmelling, Louis, Patterson, Liston fight and ranked Dempsey right up there as one of the best ever?

It's said that Cus D'Amato patterned Iron Mike Tyson around Dempsey (from the nickname Iron Mike, to the black shoes w/o socks, to the towel made into a poncho to the bob-and-weave style.

The guys that saw him never saw a Frazier, Ali, Liston, foreman, Tyson, etc..

Let Tyson stand right over you after a knockdown and let him tee off as soon as you stand..

[bklynboy]

The guys that saw him never saw a Frazier, Ali, Liston, foreman, Tyson, etc..

Let Tyson stand right over you after a knockdown and let him tee off as soon as you stand..

Good answer. :-)

And having no neutral corner when fighting a Tyson would change things tremendously.

Now to nitpick a little: guys who saw Dempsey also saw Louis, Charles, Moore, Patterson, Liston and many of them would have seen Ali and Frazier as well.

Say you were 20 and boxing in 1920 you would be 64 when Ali and Liston squared off and 71 when Ali and Frazier had the "Fight of the Century". An example would be Ray Arcel. He was born in 1899 and died in 1994 (thank you wikipedia).

"Arcel’s verdict on the Manassa Mauler was thus: “Dempsey would have absolutely beaten any fighter who came after him – without a doubt. I know all about Joe Louis and how he knocked guys’ teeth out. I have every respect for Joe – I rate him number two. But Dempsey would have killed Louis, George Foreman, any of those guys. What Jack had was God-given – you can’t develop the kind of talent he had.

“Marciano? Same result. Dempsey would have murdered Rocky. I tell you, Jack would have chased everyone out of the ring. I trained Max Baer a couple of times and often got asked how good that booming right of his was and whether it was as good as anything Dempsey had. Are you kidding? It wasn’t even close.

“Mike Tyson might have got through a round with Dempsey, maybe two. People always asked me what Jack’s weaknesses were. That’s the point – he didn’t have any.”

Former heavyweight champ Jack Sharkey expressed similar sentiments in a 1986 interview. Mike Tyson had just surged to the head of the division and Sharkey said of Mike, “There is only one heavyweight that I can see who would fit into the old school and that’s Tyson. They’re all cream puff punchers today except Tyson, and his secret is that he doesn’t waste many punches.”

Then Sharkey turned his attention to Dempsey and others “Jack Dempsey was the best because he was a real fighter, and if he hit you in the shoulder he could dislocate it."
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxin...seyFeature.htm

Now. I'm not saying that Arcel's opinion is the gold standard and that we should all bow down to him. But... here's someone who saw Dempsey, Louis, Ali, Foreman and Tyson and ranks Dempsey pretty high. (understatement).

[Marchegiano]

No doubt, Jack was an ATG.


I find it particularly interesting one would mention Tyson. Tyson's great but there's a skill Tyson lacks due to having never fought outside of neutral corner rules. Tyson knows **** about punching from the knee, and knows next to nothing about off balance punching. Yes, let Tyson hover over Dempsey......I got my money on Jack coming off his knee to KO Kid Dynamite.

You have to really understand rules and atmosphere to match up AT. Tyson may have been a beast in the late 80s through the 90s, but for boxing of the late 19th or early 20th centuries he's ill equip. Before you go thinking " No man before him could have" or " No man since" why not take the man out of it all together and see if you honestly think that " could have " or " since" applies to the era yer covering. If you push it just a little farther, 1890's, Mike's peek-a-boo would have gotten him clinched, and tossed out of the ring. because peek-a-boo was nothing new. What was new was the atmosphere and rules. Mike never had to contend with a HW being allowed to throw him out of a clinch, let alone out of the ring. It wasn't how Mike fought, it's how he fought when he fought.

That said, Mike Tyson has a chance in any era to beat any champion.

[Black Mask]

While I believe that Dempsey's status has certainly dropped over the years, he's still probably a top ten ATG at heavyweight. At one point, he was generally thought of as number 2 or 3 behind Louis and maybe Johnson. Most lists I've seen still rank him in the top five. As for me personally, he's probably around 7 or 8.

Also, I think it says on Dempsey's Wikipedia page that he actually signed a contract to face Harry Wills, but the deal fell through for some reason and he ended up defending against Tunney. If that's true, it shows he wasn't completely unwilling to face black fighters.

[Elroy1]

Even from a historical perspective.. I don't think Dempsey deserves to be a top 10 ATG...

I just don't think he did enough to edge his way into all time rankings over others.

His career to me was a bit of smoke and mirrors, he dodged some good fighters and picked his fighter often.

He didn't really beat many real good big guys when they were prime.

[nerdjack]

here is how my top5 looks

1-Ali
2-Louis
3-Foreman
4-Rocky
5-Dempsey

[Sugar Adam Ali]

here is how my top5 looks

1-Ali
2-Louis
3-Foreman
4-Rocky
5-Dempsey

No offense but horrible list

no larry holmes???

frazier, lennox, holyfield, bowe, liston, vitali, would beat the hell out of dempsey...

[ShoulderRoll]

Ray Arcel and Jack Sharkey were alive to actually see both Dempsey and some of the modern heavyweights. What they have to say carries a lot of weight with me.

[Bundana]

Ray Arcel and Jack Sharkey were alive to actually see both Dempsey and some of the modern heavyweights. What they have to say carries a lot of weight with me.

If you have seen both Dempsey and, say, Ali fight... then you would have been a young man when you saw the former, and a seasoned veteran observer, when you saw the latter. And if that's the case, isn't it obvious, that you would have been more impressed by Dempsey, than by Ali? Isn't it part of human nature, that we are more impressionable at a young age, than later on in life... and therefore have a tendency to romanticize our boyhood idols?

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the opinion of oldtimers - who believe everything was better "back in the day", and that everything new sucks!

[LacedUp]

If you have seen both Dempsey and, say, Ali fight... then you would have been a young man when you saw the former, and a seasoned veteran observer, when you saw the latter. And if that's the case, isn't it obvious, that you would have been more impressed by Dempsey, than by Ali? Isn't it part of human nature, that we are more impressionable at a young age, than later on in life... and therefore have a tendency to romanticize our boyhood idols?

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the opinion of oldtimers - who believe everything was better "back in the day", and that everything new sucks!

Ray Arcel was alive to watch Tyson fight, and he said the only one he could ever compare to Dempsey was Tyson. He felt Dempsey would wipe the floor with everyone else.