Where does Archie Moore rank among goat?

[Ray Corso]

Styles make fights and styles win & loose fights. Head to head match ups don't really give a clear picture of a fighters talent and skills. Leon Spinks beat one of the top two heavies ever, so what!
The greats will defeat each other that's why their greats! If some people here could evaluate talent along with "reading a record" they would have a better argument when discussing over all greatness!
Could Moore out box Tunney? Probably not but he might out fox him!
Who can get by Spinks power? Could Foster match him? Could Moore frustrate him?
Evaluating a fighters talents is more precise than reading a record especially in Moore era when there were so many quality fighters who could defeat one another!
I'm waiting for the guy who says Moore has no chin, because he hit the canvass so many times. Of course that could happen when you fight every week to 12 days and your not exactly hitting your road work hard up north in the winter!!! Oh well what the hell there's so many variables in the sport that the average fan just doesn't realize.
I would get a kick out of seeing someone like Mayweather transported back to a boxing career that spanned from 1945 to 1960.
He couldn't pull off what he does now, he'd be booed out the auditorium back then even counter punchers had to fight!
Ray.

[Holywarrior]

Yeah I agree about Williams they're very close.

RubenSonny made a good thread on that before.

I could easily have Harold Johnson ahead of Charley Burley on my list.

And Moore beat Johnson 4 times! 4 times he beat Johnson, a certified ATG.

Johnson is so underrated. Talking about all these guys gets very annoying to me It's easy to rate Hagler so high for a lot just because ooohhh he was in the fab 4.


Christ, back during the murderer's row times they had a fab 8

[Humean]

Johnson is so underrated. Talking about all these guys gets very annoying to me It's easy to rate Hagler so high for a lot just because ooohhh he was in the fab 4.


Christ, back during the murderer's row times they had a fab 8

I think actually 9 but how great were they? It is debatable just how great any of those 9 really were, it is surely not debatable that Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Hearns and Benitez were great.

[Holywarrior]

I think actually 9 but how great were they? It is debatable just how great any of those 9 really were, it is surely not debatable that Duran, Hagler, Leonard, Hearns and Benitez were great.

Benitez, Hagler and Hearns are no greater than a guy like Williams, Burley or Moore.

I'd argue those at the top tier murderer's row members like those 3 are actually greater.

[Holywarrior]

Styles make fights and styles win & loose fights. Head to head match ups don't really give a clear picture of a fighters talent and skills. Leon Spinks beat one of the top two heavies ever, so what!
The greats will defeat each other that's why their greats! If some people here could evaluate talent along with "reading a record" they would have a better argument when discussing over all greatness!
Could Moore out box Tunney? Probably not but he might out fox him!
Who can get by Spinks power? Could Foster match him? Could Moore frustrate him?
Evaluating a fighters talents is more precise than reading a record especially in Moore era when there were so many quality fighters who could defeat one another!
I'm waiting for the guy who says Moore has no chin, because he hit the canvass so many times. Of course that could happen when you fight every week to 12 days and your not exactly hitting your road work hard up north in the winter!!! Oh well what the hell there's so many variables in the sport that the average fan just doesn't realize.
I would get a kick out of seeing someone like Mayweather transported back to a boxing career that spanned from 1945 to 1960.
He couldn't pull off what he does now, he'd be booed out the auditorium back then even counter punchers had to fight!
Ray.

I think Charles and Burley have their fight cancelled and a NC because of lack of action That is wild.

[Humean]

Benitez, Hagler and Hearns are no greater than a guy like Williams, Burley or Moore.

I'd argue those at the top tier murderer's row members like those 3 are actually greater.

I don't think Moore is considered a murderer's row fighter, basically because he finally got the title shot bunlike the others. Williams and Burley were certainly top contenders at both welterweight and middleweight but they weren't as good as Benitez, Hagler or Hearns. I no longer think it makes sense to compare someone like Moore with these later fighters in light of the changes that have occurred in the sport but even if I did then apart from Moore I don't see how Burley or Williams could be considered in the same company as Benitez, Hagler and Hearns.

[Holywarrior]

I don't think Moore is considered a murderer's row fighter, basically because he finally got the title shot bunlike the others. Williams and Burley were certainly top contenders at both welterweight and middleweight but they weren't as good as Benitez, Hagler or Hearns. I no longer think it makes sense to compare someone like Moore with these later fighters in light of the changes that have occurred in the sport but even if I did then apart from Moore I don't see how Burley or Williams could be considered in the same company as Benitez, Hagler and Hearns.

Maybe by beating better top contenders and champions than them? Just because they never got a title shot doesn't mean they never beat any former or future champs.

[Humean]

Maybe by beating better top contenders and champions than them? Just because they never got a title shot doesn't mean they never beat any former or future champs.

Or by losing to those top contenders? When people make their defence of the greatness of Williams and Burley they always list their wins but fail to list their defeats. Benitez, Hagler and Hearns also defeated impressive champions to win their world championships, Benitez defeated Cervantes (140) and Palomino (147), Hagler defeated Minter and was perhaps unlucky not go get the decision against Antuofermo earlier and Hearns sparked out Cuevas (147) and defeated Benitez (154).

[Holywarrior]

Or by losing to those top contenders? When people make their defence of the greatness of Williams and Burley they always list their wins but fail to list their defeats. Benitez, Hagler and Hearns also defeated impressive champions to win their world championships, Benitez defeated Cervantes (140) and Palomino (147), Hagler defeated Minter and was perhaps unlucky not go get the decision against Antuofermo earlier and Hearns sparked out Cuevas (147) and defeated Benitez (154).

What is so great about Cuevas? Beating Shields and Espada? Cervantes is a good win but it's not as good as wins over guys like Johnson, Bivins, Marshall, Maxim, Lesnevich, etc.

[Humean]

What is so great about Cuevas? Beating Shields and Espada? Cervantes is a good win but it's not as good as wins over guys like Johnson, Bivins, Marshall, Maxim, Lesnevich, etc.

Well from 75/76 to 79/80 Palomino and Cuevas were the two best welterweights in the world, neither were in the top tier of great welterweights but they were both damn good fighters. I think Cervantes was better than all those fighters you named and had a more impressive career than all of them (Johnson is perhaps a borderline case). Besides a fighter is not impressive simply because of who he defeated.

Williams also lost to Cocoa Kid 8 times (can any fighter possibly be considered great, by any criteria, if they lost 8 times to one particular fighter?), also lost to Palermo (Euro champ), Jannazzo, Burley x2, Basora x3, Tunero, Booker, Marshall, Moore, Lytell x2, Cerdan, LaMotta and a few others. Perhaps a few were when he wasn't in prime but I think it is fair to say that the majority he was at his prime.

Burley lost to Dolan, Zivic, Leto, Williams x3, Bivins, Charles x 2, Marshall, Lytell and Charley Doc Williams. Again he was in his prime the majority of those defeats.

I'm not arguing that Moore wasn't a great fighter but I'd be interested when you consider him at his prime because he did lose a fair few fights during the 1940s when he was at his 'physical' prime. There is room for interpretation of just how good Archie Moore actually was.