Is Muhammad Ali the #1 Heavyweight of all time?

[Elroy1]

Well I don't want to open up an old chestnut but I firmly believe in cutting out cruiser opposition when assessing boxers. Of course most of Ali's opponents just wouldn't cut the mustard as modern opponents. Also the records of his opponents are clearly much worse than modern opponents.

Larry fought a lot of underweight and underachieved opponents too but he still managed to stay at the top of his game consistently and fought some really good fighters too.

Obviously you'll not agree by your tone, and that's ok if you don't, I realise there's still a lot of love for Muhammad but I will just leave you with one thing to think about...

The same guys that whinge how **** Wlaidmir's and Vitali's opponents are these days for example, would be completely disgusted if Wladimir or Vitali called out and fought the same opponents that Muhammad Ali fought. Think about it.

Wlaidmir, Vitali, Lennox, Larry, all were dominant champs (as was Tyson but he didn't win enough defences) for a long time. Muhammad was more like an Evander Holyfield type boxer, he could win it but he could never hold onto it for long.

[LacedUp]

Well I don't want to open up an old chestnut but I firmly believe in cutting out cruiser opposition when assessing boxers. Of course most of Ali's opponents just wouldn't cut the mustard as modern opponents. Also the records of his opponents are clearly much worse than modern opponents.

Larry fought a lot of underweight and underachieved opponents too but he still managed to stay at the top of his game consistently and fought some really good fighters too.

Obviously you'll not agree by your tone, and that's ok if you don't, I realise there's still a lot of love for Muhammad but I will just leave you with one thing to think about...

The same guys that whinge how **** Wlaidmir's and Vitali's opponents are these days for example, would be completely disgusted if Wladimir or Vitali called out and fought the same opponents that Muhammad Ali fought. Think about it.

Wlaidmir, Vitali, Lennox, Larry, all were dominant champs (as was Tyson but he didn't win enough defences) for a long time. Muhammad was more like an Evander Holyfield type boxer, he could win it but he could never hold onto it for long.

OK so when assessing this, we should also cut out Wlad's wins over Haye, Chambers and Byrd, Lennox's wins over Holyfield and Vitali's wins over Adamek and Gomez?

The rest of the garbage you wrote should get you banned. It's clear you are an alt, and I will find out who's.

Bat, take it from here.

[Elroy1]

All I said was that basically I though Muhammad wasn't the greatest because he'd be a bit small and wasn't really dominant.

Sorry man, I wasn't really trying to be offensive here

I just got here man, I can assure you I mean no disrespect, and I am certainly not anybody's other you can check all you like.

Think your a little quick to judge mate. If you want to drop it fine, if you wanna discuss it that's fine too!

[LacedUp]

All I said was that basically I though Muhammad wasn't the greatest because he'd be a bit small and wasn't really dominant.

Sorry man, I wasn't really trying to be offensive here

I just got here man, I can assure you I mean no disrespect, and I am certainly not anybody's other you can check all you like.

Think your a little quick to judge mate. If you want to drop it fine, if you wanna discuss it that's fine too!

I just think it's interesting you are belittling Ali's opponents for being small when he fought a series of top top heavyweights - who were all natural heavies - and big up the likes of Lennox and the Klitschko's when their best wins are natural cruisers or even smaller.

If you're not an alt, fine - then please elaborate. How can their achievements be of higher quality when you take out "cruiserweights".

With Ali you are still left with Frazier (three times), Foreman, Liston (twice), Norton (three times), Shavers, Bonavena, Zora Folley, Ernie Terrell, Cleveland Williams etc.

Ali beat all of these guys and I'm pretty sure all of them, except for maybe Zora Folley and Bonavena I think, are hall of famers.

Taking out the cruiserweights of the Klitschko's resumes - you are left with Sam Peter, Ruslan Chagaev, Povetkin, Ibragimov...... I mean. There's absolutely no comparison. None are hall of famers and none would ever get in.

With Lewis, taking out Holyfield - his best win - would severely diminish the status of his record.

Just trying to make sense of what you're trying to say.

[Elroy1]

Byrd, Chambers, Adamek, Gomez, Haye and Holyfield were all well over 200lbs, about 210-220lbs at time of fight with LL, WK and VK. They were Heavyweights man.

Many of Ali's fights were against opponents less that 200lbs at time of fight.

LL, WK and VK never, not once fought opponents like that.

Sure of course Ali still fought all of those guys you said. I think I did say that I rate him around 5. All in all, I would say that that is in itself a pretty flattering result.

As for records, Frazier, Norton, Foreman etc and some others have good records of course, many others did not.

It's difficult to find any opponent of WK or VK or LL post championship days that did not have a good record. Most of their opponents were champions, former, current or future, and/or unbeaten or nearly unbeaten contenders at an average size 25lbs heavier than Ali's opponents as well.

So it's not like I'm arriving an this opinion without any calculation. Except it's just an opinion. If you think Ali should rate higher than 5th, good for you.

[LacedUp]

Byrd, Chambers, Adamek, Gomez, Haye and Holyfield were all well over 200lbs, about 210-220lbs at time of fight with LL, WK and VK. They were Heavyweights man.

Many of Ali's fights were against opponents less that 200lbs at time of fight.

LL, WK and VK never, not once fought opponents like that.

Sure of course Ali still fought all of those guys you said. I think I did say that I rate him around 5. All in all, I would say that that is in itself a pretty flattering result.

As for records, Frazier, Norton, Foreman etc and some others have good records of course, many others did not.

It's difficult to find any opponent of WK or VK or LL post championship days that did not have a good record. Most of their opponents were champions, former, current or future, and/or unbeaten or nearly unbeaten contenders at an average size 25lbs heavier than Ali's opponents as well.

So it's not like I'm arriving an this opinion without any calculation. Except it's just an opinion. If you think Ali should rate higher than 5th, good for you.

All of Byrd, Chambers, Adamek, Gomez, Haye and Holyfield either started at or fought at a lower weight than heavyweight at multiple times in their careers. Some were lightheavies.

There's plenty that did not have a good record? Leapai was knocked out by a guy who was 2-2 ffs.

You also said H2H he would be "lucky" to make top 20

Of course you're an alt. All the focus on weight.

Welcome back hweightblogger.

[SBleeder]

Byrd, Chambers, Adamek, Gomez, Haye and Holyfield were all well over 200lbs, about 210-220lbs at time of fight with LL, WK and VK. They were Heavyweights man.

Many of Ali's fights were against opponents less that 200lbs at time of fight.

LL, WK and VK never, not once fought opponents like that.

Sure of course Ali still fought all of those guys you said. I think I did say that I rate him around 5. All in all, I would say that that is in itself a pretty flattering result.

As for records, Frazier, Norton, Foreman etc and some others have good records of course, many others did not.

It's difficult to find any opponent of WK or VK or LL post championship days that did not have a good record. Most of their opponents were champions, former, current or future, and/or unbeaten or nearly unbeaten contenders at an average size 25lbs heavier than Ali's opponents as well.

So it's not like I'm arriving an this opinion without any calculation. Except it's just an opinion. If you think Ali should rate higher than 5th, good for you.

Jerry Quarry > Anybody on either Klitschko's resume.

I join LacedUp in welcoming back HWBlogger. http://www.heavyweightblog.com/

[billeau2]

All of Byrd, Chambers, Adamek, Gomez, Haye and Holyfield either started at or fought at a lower weight than heavyweight at multiple times in their careers. Some were lightheavies.

There's plenty that did not have a good record? Leapai was knocked out by a guy who was 2-2 ffs.

You also said H2H he would be "lucky" to make top 20

Of course you're an alt. All the focus on weight.

Welcome back hweightblogger.

note to self:

when posting as an alt do not make ridiculous arguments

[billeau2]

Jerry Quarry > Anybody on either Klitschko's resume.

I join LacedUp in welcoming back HWBlogger. http://www.heavyweightblog.com/

Actually after much consideration the alt advancing the argument is quite correct, Here is why:

In the seventies the hair styles were such that hair on a fighters head accounted for about ten pounds. Therefore behemoths like Povatkin weighing in are a giants compared to the like of Quarry.

[SBleeder]

Actually after much consideration the alt advancing the argument is quite correct, Here is why:

In the seventies the hair styles were such that hair on a fighters head accounted for about ten pounds. Therefore behemoths like Povatkin weighing in are a giants compared to the like of Quarry.

Ah, very true.

I'm amazed that Leon Spinks was able to slip punches with that Afro: