How can you tell when a boxer is truly "past it?"

[Mintcar923]

It seems as though certain guys appear to be shot then later on put on some commanding performances. Others end up being completely shot even at a young age never to regain their form. Should we rank fighters based on their longevity or how good they were at their absolute best?

[Ray Corso]

Most solid competitors have a tuff time walking away! They are warriors even if their master boxers, and it is their livelyhood! Many don't have plans when they begin for their retirement because most fighters live in the moment thats why fans don't understand the tragedy that some men go through.

As to beginning to fade it is the legs first! Its an old expression but a truthfull statement. All of a sudden their getting dropped without being hurt!!! Body shots that they absorbed in their prime debilitate now! Their second wind comes on to quickly and far to early for 10 to 15 rounds and when that happens the old saying stepping at the beach or in cement becomes a reality!
Your body transforms also, the pecs are lower the biceps lose their peak. You see a wider mid riff less muscle tone in the thighs. Just as we all change with age the fighter who's had an active career usually hits the wall at 36 with his talents carrying him on but eventually time robs everyone!
Power guys almost always maintain their punch especially the heavy handed guys like Big George, those guys are born with that type of power!

My old friend Gaspar Ortega told me he knew he was finished when was getting off the floor from punches that would have had no effect on him in the past! MotherNature can punch!! Ray.

[joseph5620]

It seems as though certain guys appear to be shot then later on put on some commanding performances. Others end up being completely shot even at a young age never to regain their form. Should we rank fighters based on their longevity or how good they were at their absolute best?

Both in my opinion. If a fighter can adjust and continue to win at the top level, despite being past their best, that's a bonus for their legacy. But on the other hand, a fighter shouldn't be judged negatively based on what they couldn't do past their prime. However if they can overcome age, it enhances their career.

An example would be Roy Jones Junior and Bernard Hopkins. Hopkins is way past his prime but he has been able to adjust and utilize his skills to overcome what he has lost with age. Jones could not. Jones was a better fighter prime for prime but overall Hopkins probably will have a better legacy because of what he was able to do for a longer period of time. This is only my opinion and outlook.

[creekrat77]

A lot of it has to do with what kind of style the boxer uses and how he defends himself. Like for instances a 45 year old Larry Holmes can keep fighting and be competitive within the heavyweight division because his style is using the jab and straight rights. He fights on the outside and doesn't need to be in tip top shape to be effective with his long reach and ring smarts. For fighters though like Tyson and Duran there styles revolve around ring smarts and being in tip top mental and physical shape. For Tyson to beat Lewis at the time they fought would have been much harder for him then it would have been a decade prior because being elusive using footwork/bobbing and weaving is very strenuous. Basically though when a fighter is shot his best weapons or abilities that got him to the top have diminished or are not at par. For instance Roy Jones hand speed was and is not that bad still but when he lost to Tarver his legs were not working the way they used to which leaves him open for shots. B-Hop for example is definitely past his prime but his high IQ in ring smarts and knowing the ins and outs keeps him on top against the opposition he has faced in the past few years.

[Mintcar923]

A lot of it has to do with what kind of style the boxer uses and how he defends himself. Like for instances a 45 year old Larry Holmes can keep fighting and be competitive within the heavyweight division because his style is using the jab and straight rights. He fights on the outside and doesn't need to be in tip top shape to be effective with his long reach and ring smarts. For fighters though like Tyson and Duran there styles revolve around ring smarts and being in tip top mental and physical shape. For Tyson to beat Lewis at the time they fought would have been much harder for him then it would have been a decade prior because being elusive using footwork/bobbing and weaving is very strenuous. Basically though when a fighter is shot his best weapons or abilities that got him to the top have diminished or are not at par. For instance Roy Jones hand speed was and is not that bad still but when he lost to Tarver his legs were not working the way they used to which leaves him open for shots. B-Hop for example is definitely past his prime but his high IQ in ring smarts and knowing the ins and outs keeps him on top against the opposition he has faced in the past few years.

I see what you're saying but it depends on the boxer, as well. I'm not sure if the "style" thing is entirety true. For example, Ali and Holmes had extremely similar styles yet Holmes was much the superior late in their careers. Louis & Holyfield had very similar boxer-puncher styles yet a late 30's Holyfield would definitely have the advantage IMO even after having been through tougher fights. I respect your theory but I just don't think thats the explanation. Also, if you had noticed Tyson and Benitez
had started very young and became champions young. Yet, they were not nearly as successful in their later days as in their youth. Big George, who took 10 years off took his time when he came back and eased back into contention almost like an entirely different fighter. He also took care of himself well, trained excellently, and somehow was able to turn back the clock.

[titanium]

For most fans it is when he starts losing.

[Sugarj]

I see what you're saying but it depends on the boxer, as well. I'm not sure if the "style" thing is entirety true. For example, Ali and Holmes had extremely similar styles yet Holmes was much the superior late in their careers. Louis & Holyfield had very similar boxer-puncher styles yet a late 30's Holyfield would definitely have the advantage IMO even after having been through tougher fights. I respect your theory but I just don't think thats the explanation. Also, if you had noticed Tyson and Benitez
had started very young and became champions young. Yet, they were not nearly as successful in their later days as in their youth. Big George, who took 10 years off took his time when he came back and eased back into contention almost like an entirely different fighter. He also took care of himself well, trained excellently, and somehow was able to turn back the clock.

A lot has to be said for the fact that not every brain and every body absorbs punishment with exactly the same results regardless of a boxer's style or even perceived levels of punishment.

Ali ended up with Parkinsons Syndrome, Gerald McClellan/Paul Ingle/Spencer Oliver/Michael Watson ended up with blood clots. Paret and Schaff were killed. Rid**** Bowe and James Toney now have slurred speech. Floyd Patterson and Willie Pep ended up with memory loss.

However Jake La Motta and George Chuvalo absorbed some of the most revolting blows ever taken in the ring yet remain sharp, clear spoken and......alive.

As human beings we are extremely complicated systems, none more so than the brain......which governs so much. A boxer can become 'shot' through age or punishment. Though in some cases a boxer can be perceived as being shot when they simply are:

1) Having a 'bad day in the office'
2) Have prepared insufficiently
3) Are troubled by a very tricky style

[jas]

It seems as though certain guys appear to be shot then later on put on some commanding performances. Others end up being completely shot even at a young age never to regain their form. Should we rank fighters based on their longevity or how good they were at their absolute best?

bhop and rjj are good example for those. bhop has a better resume so should be ranked higher than rjj. in a h2h list, rjj ranks extremely high.

if bhop becomes undisputed champ at age of 50, that should increase his atg ranking based on exceptional longevity.

[jas]

a fighter loses his legs first.

a fighter getting old overnight is an overused, incorrectly used adage. a fighter gets old in the gym.

[Anthony342]

When he loses consistently to journeymen.