George Foreman vs. Lennox Lewis

[Yogi]

Physically George is no different. His basic fight style didn't change much and obviously his arsenal of shots remained the same. Mentally though George was different. This can be seen when comparing the two Frazier fights.

Fight 1, George goes for Frazier and tries to blast him at every oportunity. If Frazier slows down, Foreman pounces and attacks - just as he did with all fighters. Frazier was backed on the ropes and Foreman hit more and a lot harder.

Loses to Ali

Fight 2
George picks his shots more carefully and jabs more. He still attacks Joe when Frazier slows but Foreman doesn't throw relentless hooks as much anymore. Frazier is backed up against the ropes but Foreman doesn't off load, he looks for openings and throws smartly. George wasn't going to have another rope a dope happen.

Maybe George was a smarter fighter after Ali, but this came as a loss as it changed his primary and most dangerous fight style.

Most fighters who ring up a fairly long unbeaten streak are different when they lose that first pro fight and it just seems too convient to say Foreman "was not CLOSE to the same fighter" when these two eyes of mine tell me something completely opposite...

Unlike yourself, Stinger, when compared to their first go-around I see Foreman throwing as relentlessly in the rematch on those occasions when Frazier isn't backing/moving out of Foreman's range or when Foreman closed the gap from behind the jab...Frazier is the guy who's fighting the very noticably different fight in the rematch and his movement did nullify some of Foreman's punch rate & forced him to use the jab more. But Big George is still throwing the bombs in bunches basically every time he gets within that mid/long range that he liked so much.

[Kid Achilles]

lennox wouldn't get out of the third round with foreman, if he makes it that far. none of lewis' punches would hurt george. george wins an easy early ko.

This is absolute fantasy. I see Foreman winning too but Lewis could very well knock him out. Lewis hit harder and had a better right hand than Ron Lyle, who came very close to knocking Foreman out. Foreman had a very good chin but it was not granite and Lewis had a HUGE right hand.

[Yogi]

Frazier is backed up against the ropes but Foreman doesn't off load, he looks for openings and throws smartly. George wasn't going to have another rope a dope happen.

Just watched the first round of the rematch again and there was about a 40 second sequence there where Frazier had his back to the ropes on a couple of sides of the ring. And in that 40 second period it looked like Foreman threw 60-70 punches against Joe with the vast majority of those punches being hooks & uppercuts (a few left hand jabs or "feelers" also, but not many)...Foreman did not much appear to be concentrating on looking for openings during that sequence, did not look like he was worried much about the rope-a-dope, and he most definately WAS loading up on his power shots.

[smasher]

Having just watched a few of Foreman's fights from both before and after the one with Ali, I'd say Big George was VERY close to the same fighter after 1974...

For example, Joe Frazier tried to be much more elusive in the rematch and unlike the first fight with Foreman, rarely attacked Big George head on. But Foreman used the same basic style of jabbing when Frazier was on the outside & within reach of it (which is how he started the first fight), threw numerous hooks & uppercuts when Frazier or he closed the distance and were mid/close range, and gave the same type of pressure in forcing Frazier back against the ropes (where Foreman again let the bombs go)...There was no noticable difference in speed of hand or foot, and besides the fact that Frazier fought him much different the second time around (Foreman didn't have to push Frazier off as much in the rematch, but still did when Frazier attacked him head-on), George Foreman fought with the same style he did against Frazier in the first fight, as well as other fights like against Boone Kirkman for example.

"Not close to the same fighter" is a stretch from Heckler, but in the Frazier re-match you have chosen Foreman's best (IMO) post Ali performance. Foreman's "looking good" and dominance can be attributed to a few things. Firstly, he had the supreme confidence against Frazier a fighter he had previously destroyed, and who had a style tailor made for Big George. Frazier was also post Manilla, and I believe Frazier left alot of himself in the ring against Ali that night and had deteriorated more so than Foreman since their first fight.

Foreman looked particularly bad against Lyle and Young. In the Lyle fight George wouldn't even unload on Lyle when Lyle covered on the ropes, instead choosing to play patty-cake with Lyle's gloves. His balance was poor, his punching was wild (even for Foreman), his chin looked shaky and just his all-round **** performance rates this as one of his worse performances, although it did put him and Lyle on a more even playing field which made for an exciting slugfest.

Against Young, Foreman was far too conservative and measured allowing Young to establish the fight and get past the early rounds which was traditionally Foreman territory. It was very apparent that Foreman (by his own admission) was afraid of punching himself out and in effect gave Young the breathing space required to win the fight.

[Yogi]

"Not close to the same fighter" is a stretch from Heckler, but in the Frazier re-match you have chosen Foreman's best (IMO) post Ali performance. Foreman's "looking good" and dominance can be attributed to a few things. Firstly, he had the supreme confidence against Frazier a fighter he had previously destroyed, and who had a style tailor made for Big George. Frazier was also post Manilla, and I believe Frazier left alot of himself in the ring against Ali that night and had deteriorated more so than Foreman since their first fight.

Foreman looked particularly bad against Lyle and Young. In the Lyle fight George wouldn't even unload on Lyle when Lyle covered on the ropes, instead choosing to play patty-cake with Lyle's gloves. His balance was poor, his punching was wild (even for Foreman), his chin looked shaky and just his all-round **** performance rates this as one of his worse performances, although it did put him and Lyle on a more even playing field which made for an exciting slugfest.

Against Young, Foreman was far too conservative and measured allowing Young to establish the fight and get past the early rounds which was traditionally Foreman territory. It was very apparent that Foreman (by his own admission) was afraid of punching himself out and in effect gave Young the breathing space required to win the fight.

I probably have chosen the best fight Foreman fought post-Ali, Smasher, but I also compared it to what was probably his peak performance pre-Ali (only his fight with Norton could compare, in my opinion, but that was basically against a fighter who fought a totally opposite style to what he normally did) with the focus being on what Foreman was doing, how he was fighting stylistically, and how his skillset had compared to the first meeting (hand speed, foot speed, punch aresenal & variety, etc.).

Unfortunately we don't have much to go on of Foreman's during the 70's, because besides a collection of second and third raters, he only fought a few elite Heavyweights during that decade...Frazier x2 (depleted, but still highly ranked going into the rematch), Norton, Ali, Lyle and Young. And in those fights he had three quality performances in those matchups with top Heavyweights (Frazier x2, Norton) and three that weren't so good (Ali, Lyle, Young).

Foreman's always seemed to have had some issues with his balance and it seems those wild punches he threw had something to do with that. You see other fights of his pre-Ali where he loads up on his shots and then appears to stumble to catch his balance...He did that against Kirkman (another fight where Foreman was especially wild with his punches) and to a lesser extent, Frazier in their first meeting. No suprise he'd do that against Lyle also, who just may have been the hardest puncher Foreman had faced during the 70's (either he or Frazier, who didn't land much of anything in either fight with Big George, besides a couple of "backed him up" left hooks), which might expalin why George's "chin looked shaky" to some.

And Foreman may have looked somewhat conservative against Young, but how is that different than what he should against other fighters who tried staying away from him (Young was especially elusive for the first half of that fight and one could almost accuse him of "running away" at times)?

Ali slowed Foreman's attack down some in the first couple of rounds of that fight with his footwork (and combination punching) before reverting to the rope-a-dope. Peralta also slowed Foreman's attack down some in their second fight (Foreman concentrated mainly on trying to jab for the most part in that fight) by again making himself a pretty elusive target with that crouching & slippery style of his...Foreman basically only fought three fighters who focused some on making themselves an elusive target (Norton don't count because he was inept at even trying that style!) and each one of them had success in limiting his punch output or attack rate.

[Heckler]

I think Foreman was a different fighter after that. He was apprehensive, tried to pace himself and never really went after fighters. Doesn't work to well when you have no fundementals. The seek and destroy Foreman was the best version. Everyone saw what he done to Ali. Ali was only able to stay off the ropes for the first round or so. In Ali's words 'I was using more energy trying to stay away from him then he was using trying to catch me'. Its essentially impossible for any fighter at the exception of a Pre-Layoff Ali to stay away from Foreman when he fought in that fashion. Thus Ali executed the rope-a-dope, something no other boxer in history would be able to do. The Foreman he fought was a confident fighter whom truly believed himself to be invincible in the ring, and he's probably the closest thing there was to it in boxing history. He left the ring a mental basketcase that never really went after opponents with confidence like he did previously.

A peak Foreman would go after Lennox, and without the ability to laterally move or handspeed comparable to Ali's to somewhat neutralise Foreman, he would inevitably be pushed onto the ropes and systematically destroyed.

"George was devastated by his loss to Ali, after taking time off he changed trainers hiring Gil Clancy and began to fight at a more measured pace. Although George had some success even at an old age fighting in a more controlled manner, the comeback version was never as good as the original seek and destroy version." - Monte Cox

"He paced himself, fighting in his newfound measured style and did not throw a significant punch for the first 5 rounds. This was all wrong for him. The Foreman of Zaire would have tracked down Young, forced him to the ropes, went to the body with power and belted him out inside of a few short rounds." - Monte Cox

^ thats what he would of done, would of gone for him initially and tried to take his head off.

[Yogi]

Hmm...I see you quoting that Monte Cox character quite often Heckler, but what does his personal opinion matter to you?

He's an intelligent boxing fan (one of many on the net!), but I'm not really interested in his own personal opinions on something that I can judge with my own two eyes (Foreman from both pre & post Ali).

Do you take his words as facts or something?

"Joe Louis is the one man who would knock Muhammad Ali out!" - Monte Cox

"Stating that he(Louis) would beat Ali, I believe is wrong." - Heckler

Just wondering.

[Yogi]

Speaking of the "more measured" version of George Foreman who "tried to pace himself"...Did anybody else notice that in his fight with Kenny Norton, Big George only attempted to throw one punch (a missed right uppercut to the body of Norton's) in the first 40 seconds of the fight?

[Southpaw Stinger]

Just watched the first round of the rematch again and there was about a 40 second sequence there where Frazier had his back to the ropes on a couple of sides of the ring. And in that 40 second period it looked like Foreman threw 60-70 punches against Joe with the vast majority of those punches being hooks & uppercuts (a few left hand jabs or "feelers" also, but not many)...Foreman did not much appear to be concentrating on looking for openings during that sequence, did not look like he was worried much about the rope-a-dope, and he most definately WAS loading up on his power shots.

I think it's in round 4 when Frazier is up on the ropes a few times and Foreman does nothing except put a few jabs in now and again and wait for an opening.

[Kid Achilles]

There was nothing wrong with Foreman's chin against Lyle; that's just what happens to most heavyweights when they get nailed by a straight right delivered by a 220 pound man who knows how to punch. Foreman's chin was solid but never granite. He looked impervious against Holyfield later in his career because Holyfield was never a big puncher and was a much smaller man. I've watched film of Ken Lakusta, a flabby 216 lber, seriously hurt Foreman with a right hand in 1990. Foreman would get hurt when you hit him flush. He was hardly hurt in his early career because most guys were too afraid to open up on him. If Lewis landed his best right hand on Foreman, he'd go down for sure. Possibly for the full count.