Top 20 of all times?

[IronDanHamza]

Just checked. Moore was induced in 2010.

Earlier you said you doubted Wilde really did beat the best flyweights in the world. I doubt this for 2 reasons:

Firstly in an era when the best boxers tended to fight each other why would Wilde be so lauded if he did the opposite?

Secondly, why would he avoid the best flyweights in the world only to take on the best batams in the world? He fought 3 HoF Bantamweights in Memphis Moore, Jo Lynch and Pete Herman. Yes all lower end HoFers but they represent the best Bantamweights of the time. Who was he avoiding at Flyweight that made fighting these guys the easy option and why haven't we heard of them?

The conventional wisdom is he destroyed the best fighters in his division and then went looking for bigger fights against the best bantams in the world and I don't see any evidence to suggest that this is incorrect.

I can understand you saying he has not got a good enough resume to be ranked in the top 20 p4p, but how can you say his resume is a joke? He beat 2 HoF batams weights both of whom outweighed him by around 15lbs. Some joke.

Where have I said it's a joke? It's not a joke. But it is poor and far from Top 20 ATG calibur.

You make a good case for your point about those being the best fighters of that era. I suppose my lack of faith is the mixture of the lack of information we have on that Flyweight era aswell as the fact that's clearly a very poor era.

[Welsh Jon]

Where have I said it's a joke? It's not a joke. But it is poor and far from Top 20 ATG calibur.

You make a good case for your point about those being the best fighters of that era. I suppose my lack of faith is the mixture of the lack of information we have on that Flyweight era aswell as the fact that's clearly a very poor era.

Ha just read back through the thread and no you never said it was a joke!

Erm not sure what I was arguing about now because I don't think he is Top 20 ATG calibur either.

Basically I thought an Englishman was abusing a Welsh hero and leapt to my boys defence! Sorry it's in my blood.

[IronDanHamza]

Ha just read back through the thread and no you never said it was a joke!

Erm not sure what I was arguing about now because I don't think he is Top 20 ATG calibur either.

Basically I thought an Englishman was abusing a Welsh hero and leapt to my boys defence! Sorry it's in my blood.

Haha no worry.

If it was Freddie Welsh it would be a different matter. He's much greater than Wilde, I'd say.

[Welsh Jon]

Haha no worry.

If it was Freddie Welsh it would be a different matter. He's much greater than Wilde, I'd say.

Indeed. In fact I can't think of a British boxer with a stronger resume than Welsh.

Depending on whether you consider Fitzsimmons British of course.

[IronDanHamza]

Indeed. In fact I can't think of a British boxer with a stronger resume than Welsh.

Depending on whether you consider Fitzsimmons British of course.

Would depend if you considered McLarnin British aswell. He was born in Britain.

I'd have him and Fitzsimmons #1 and #2 but again that depends if you consider them British because many don't.

[Humean]

My narrow definition (80-90% quality/ability displayed plus 10-20% achievements)

This is my order at the moment, i'm sure i'd have it different on another day.

1: Sugar Ray Robinson
2: Roberto Duran
3: Muhamamd Ali
4: Carlos Monzon
5: Sugar Ray Leonard
6: Alexis Arguello
7: Marvin Hagler
8: Julio Cesar Chavez
9: Pernell Whitaker
10: Manny Pacquiao
11: Floyd Mayweather
12: Ezzard Charles
13: Jose Napoles
14: Henry Armstrong
15: Michael Spinks
16: Roy Jones jr
17: Joe Louis
18: Salvador Sanchez
19: Emile Griffith
20: Bernard Hopkins

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Roy's resume is much better than Jack Johnsons.

Better than Chavez' aswell.

Roy and johnson beat the same caliber of fighters IMO,, toney gets alot of praise, so that could edge roy,, but i think they are in the same ballpark with roy slightly ahead

Chavez i think has a better resume, slightly.. He has more depth than roy.. Its one of those classic one big win vs alot of good wins.. I lean towards chavez because over the long haul he fought much better guys,, yes he had some bums, but chavez stayed incredibly active in his career so you will find some bums on his resume, but the likes of camacho, laporte, rosario, mayweather is better than tarver, griffin, mccallum, hill,
hopkins and toney are great wins, the taylor win for chavez is great,, resumes are very close and i won really debate that hard for chavez, i just think year after year he fought top guys, so i give chavez a slight edge but not by much

Especially considering that Chavez was literally outclassed by Whitaker.

Whittaker is a better fighter than anyone roy ever fought,, at that same stage of his career, roy was getting the daddy treatment from tarver, a fighter with barely above average skills, hopkins turned him into a sparring partner and truely showed how limited tarver was

[IronDanHamza]

Roy and johnson beat the same caliber of fighters IMO,, toney gets alot of praise, so that could edge roy,, but i think they are in the same ballpark with roy slightly ahead

How do you work this one out?

Chavez i think has a better resume, slightly.. He has more depth than roy.. Its one of those classic one big win vs alot of good wins.. I lean towards chavez because over the long haul he fought much better guys,, yes he had some bums, but chavez stayed incredibly active in his career so you will find some bums on his resume, but the likes of camacho, laporte, rosario, mayweather is better than tarver, griffin, mccallum, hill,
hopkins and toney are great wins, the taylor win for chavez is great,, resumes are very close and i won really debate that hard for chavez, i just think year after year he fought top guys, so i give chavez a slight edge but not by much

How the hell is Juan Laporte the same level as Montel Griffin, Hill or Tarver?

Roger Mayweather is no better than those wins.

I don't think even think Camacho or Rosario are all that better than those wins, if better at all.

I don't think Meldrick Taylor is a "Great" win. What makes it a great win?

James Toney is a great win, a dominant win over a great fighter in his prime.

Taylor's a great win because he beat a good fighter and struggled badly?

Whittaker is a better fighter than anyone roy ever fought,, at that same stage of his career, roy was getting the daddy treatment from tarver, a fighter with barely above average skills, hopkins turned him into a sparring partner and truely showed how limited tarver was

Whitaker beat Chavez easily so I don't see the relevance of this.

Chavez lost to a better fighter? Ok..

[toooooool]

Where's Rocky Marciano?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

]How do you work this one out?

Roy has the better wins vs toney, hopkins, but other than that, the resumes are very close,, Johnson was a heavy so obviously he doesnt get the chance to say he was a multi-division champ like roy... roy has a slightly better resume, but overall they are very close

How the hell is Juan Laporte the same level as Montel Griffin, Hill or Tarver?

Roger Mayweather is no better than those wins.

I don't think even think Camacho or Rosario are all that better than those wins, if better at all.

I don't think Meldrick Taylor is a "Great" win. What makes it a great win?

James Toney is a great win, a dominant win over a great fighter in his prime.

Taylor's a great win because he beat a good fighter and struggled badly?

Laporte is the same level as as griffin, over the hill HILL, probably not better than the tarver win TBH
Camacho and rosario are better than any wins roy has besides toney or hopkins
Taylor was a great fighter, but a short shelf life,, but he was absolutely primed when he fought chavez,, Taylor is the same caliber as toney or hopkins, he just didnt have a long career, but late 80s taylor was as good as it gets, and it was a great win for chavez.. Taylor didnt have the longevity like toney or hopkins,, but beating taylor 90 is much better than beating hopkins 93 IMO.. Toney might be a better win, but as you know, i dont think that was the best version of toney,

Whitaker beat Chavez easily so I don't see the relevance of this.

Chavez lost to a better fighter? Ok..

[/QUOTE]
Tarver beat roy's ass at the same stage, and pernell is much much much better than tarver....

let roy have 90 fights vs everyone on the block like chavez did,, i think vinny paz is the only guy chavez didnt fight from that era...
Like i said earlier, its the case of big win vs depth,,,, roy had the big win vs toney, chavez had year after year of beating top guys from 84-93 chavez was beating top guys,,, roy from 94-03 was beating lucas, byrd, brannon, frazier, griffin, del valle