Fighters then and now....objective differences (not opinions)

[billeau2]

The purpose of this thread is to look at objective observations that determine how fighters have changed over the years. Lets back away from opinions and focus specifically on changes that occured in the sport.

For example, we know that Football players are bigger stronger faster etc and when we ask why? well the money, drugs and interest in the NFL changed the players from Artie Donovan type big strong guys to athletes at the top of the pyrmid. Baseball players used to be one step removed from criminals when the game started, during the seventies players like Wilbur Wood were hardly athletic...today? hitters are better and usually weight trained, pitchers throw harder....etc.

Yet in boxing there is debate as to whether the fighters are better. Looking at a picture of David Haye versus prime Roy Jones, Jones lookes like a guy who needs to work on his chest, Haye looks like a Greek statue....BUt unlike many other sports we can say "so what"?

What are changes you notice? Not opinions but actual empirical changes, or attitudes that changed over the years? For example, Punchstat numbers, rounds, glove size, etc?

Have at it.

[Ray Corso]

Jones vs Hayes CHEST? really? This isn't bodybuilding, in fact the way Hayes fights maybe he should be a bodybuilder?????

baseball--------Babe Ruth, read his stats (as a pitcher too) who compares>
football-------Jim Brown, read his stats who compares to him these days?
boxing-----Sugar Ray Robinson, not even close!!!!!
basketball-----Chamberlain, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Byrd, even Jordan is years ago!

Every sport has a few "giants" that are Great!! None from the last 15 years! Just as difficult to find in 25 years!!!

Bigger, Faster, Stronger.................Dumber!!! Surface accomplishments no one dives deep to be able to be "well rounded" today most are one dimentional.
Who moves, throws combinations and has power and defense like Sugarman, no one!!! Wheres the next 6' 3" 220lb Ali???? Wlad looks like Herman Munster compasred to Ali!!!

Great boxers rise from poverty cultures & people!! Their hungry and once they eat they like it!!! Society picks and chooses which sports to favor. American football is huge but its taking a hit from concussive situations from high school to college and pros. Boxing is ALL about concussive behavior so fewer young people are taken to a boxing gym. Unless their "hungry"!!!
Ray

[billeau2]

Jones vs Hayes CHEST? really? This isn't bodybuilding, in fact the way Hayes fights maybe he should be a bodybuilder?????

baseball--------Babe Ruth, read his stats (as a pitcher too) who compares>
football-------Jim Brown, read his stats who compares to him these days?
boxing-----Sugar Ray Robinson, not even close!!!!!
basketball-----Chamberlain, Russell, Jabbar, Magic, Byrd, even Jordan is years ago!

Every sport has a few "giants" that are Great!! None from the last 15 years! Just as difficult to find in 25 years!!!

Bigger, Faster, Stronger.................Dumber!!! Surface accomplishments no one dives deep to be able to be "well rounded" today most are one dimentional.
Who moves, throws combinations and has power and defense like Sugarman, no one!!! Wheres the next 6' 3" 220lb Ali???? Wlad looks like Herman Munster compasred to Ali!!!

Great boxers rise from poverty cultures & people!! Their hungry and once they eat they like it!!! Society picks and chooses which sports to favor. American football is huge but its taking a hit from concussive situations from high school to college and pros. Boxing is ALL about concussive behavior so fewer young people are taken to a boxing gym. Unless their "hungry"!!!
Ray

Your Klitschko comment LOL! damn!

Ray as much as I agree with quite a bit of what you say....The fact is that in the good majority of sports the teams have gotten stronger. I mean football players are just faster and stronger...Most linebackers can run as fast as Jim Brown, even some linemen! (joking).

I don't think it is evolution because biogenically we are not really different. I tend to think it is social factors. I also agree that boxing is atypical in that it as seemingly diminished.


I doubt the Babe could hit major league pitching today....although I do think Ted Williamsn is still the greatest natural hitter....Carew ranks up there though.

Dude that Herman Munster comment damn! haha

[Cuauhtémoc1520]

Ray is in the old school mentality, he is biased in thinking that old school means better...it does not.

Like everything else, boxing has evolved, now it hasn't as much as some of the new school people think but it has. You talk about size and muscle mass, well in boxing muscles don't mean ****, because the purpose of boxing is to get down to the lowest weight you can and still retain you're strength and speed.

Some fighters are genetically better as far as the way they look. It doesn't mean they can hit harder. I have a guy that I train that can bench press about 380 lbs, yet he can't hit as hard as me because he's stiff and has poor technique.

There's no doubt though that either of the Klitchkos would be great in any era, they are huge men, highly skilled and would pose a serious problem for any HW in history IMO.

I believe that boxers are as good now as they have ever been skill wise, you cannot tell me JMM, Pac, Mayweather, DLH, Hopkins, Donaire, Rigo, Sergio Martinez, Ward, etc...wouldn't be good in any era. If you think that you are lying to yourself.

I do think that fighters were TOUGHER back in the day though, that I can say for sure. Because the gloves were poorly made compared to now, fighters fought 3 or 4 times per month sometimes. Conditions were way worse, regulations of the rules and protection of the fighters wasn't important, things like that.

[SBleeder]

I believe that boxers are as good now as they have ever been skill wise, you cannot tell me JMM, Pac, Mayweather, DLH, Hopkins, Donaire, Rigo, Sergio Martinez, Ward, etc...wouldn't be good in any era. If you think that you are lying to yourself.

Marquez, Pacquiao, and Mayweather would be champions in most eras.

The rest you mentioned would have a tough go in many other time periods. Martinez would never beat the likes of a Monzon, a Hagler, a Greb, or a Robinson.

Ward? Seriously?

[Scott9945]

Your Klitschko comment LOL! damn!

Ray as much as I agree with quite a bit of what you say....The fact is that in the good majority of sports the teams have gotten stronger. I mean football players are just faster and stronger...Most linebackers can run as fast as Jim Brown, even some linemen! (joking).

I don't think it is evolution because biogenically we are not really different. I tend to think it is social factors. I also agree that boxing is atypical in that it as seemingly diminished.


I doubt the Babe could hit major league pitching today....although I do think Ted Williamsn is still the greatest natural hitter....Carew ranks up there though.

Dude that Herman Munster comment damn! haha

Ruth and Brown were exceptional talents aand I have no doubt they would be dominant now. In one season Ruth actually had more home runs than any other team in the league. As deluded as baseball pitching is now with 30+ teams, it would be easy picking for the Babe.

[Ray Corso]

Its a useless conversation for boxing comparisons. In boxing theirs elite! Elite can compete on any level of any era. Plus theirs very few at a time. In baseball in Ruth era there were 8 or 12 teams now theres 30 with a 25 man roster. Yet theirs barely an increase in "stars"!! (Ruth couldn't hit todays pitching? stop it) he remains the greatest player ever theres NO questioning it.
What does speed have to do with knowing how to run? Jim Browns success wasn't predicated on speed of foot it was intelligence in his game. Knowing his players and his oppositions weaknesses. Just like a great fighter attacks his opponent!
The thought of Sergio trying to pull his "tag" boxing game on Robinson makes me laugh. The top tier men in boxing today don't compare to the men in the 30's thru the 70's they just don't. If you know your era's in boxing and know how to evaluate a fighters skills its pretty damn easy to see.
We watched a terrific boxer the other night perform "his" style at a high level but I'm stating right now that guys in big trouble in with Sandy Sadler! ( I know 22 to 26 but to me their the same weight class wtf is 4lbs)
Also I'm not biased, I'm a realists I know boxing skills and its for me to recognize when a man has the correct attitude or not! Being "willing" is as important as skill.
If Babe Ruth & Lou Gehrig were on the same team these days they'd have to Owners!!!! How would you pay them!!!!! Are you going to tell that Mayweather sells 60,000 at Yankee St??? Why aren't there boxing shows in the greater New York area ever week? Because theres fewer & fewer "local stars" also thats the real meat & potatoes of the sport and thats been hurting for years. Why isn't there a boxing show at the Hartford Civic Center every month now!!!! Because theres fewer kids in New Haven, Bridgport, Hartford etc. boxing!!! Its not just the big names where the percentage of talent has fallen its the lower tier guy and even the "trial horse" is virtually gone compared to past times. We're in a social slide!!! The big shows are fine, we have a few "good" fighters that the people who don't **** call
great" screw it, thats fine. I earned a pretty good living, traveled the world and ny teachers were the best which gave me a chance to work with some of the greats in boxing. I past some of my knowldge on to people who are active even today! Don't look at records look at tecniques look at attitudes and skills thats how to compare. Dinner time try not to call each other names , Ray

[billeau2]

Ok....I used the "chest size" to make the point that a fighting man is built differently in certain respects.... That is a specific point. I.e. the guys in the day could go forever and were built more like fighters than athletes (imo)...I mean the Gracies are similar, many of them are built like twerps and can neutralize a bigger broth of a man.....

So gang....Hiow about specific points? Like a training point, a rule point etc....We had one poster talk about gloves, thats a start....For example, in baseball we have the supposed "live ball" that gave an advantage to the hitter.

[Andyland]

Fighters now and then

They fought much more often and it was much tougher to go up in weight and fight for another belt. Sometimes a 13 or 15 pound weight difference.

Henry Armstrong was a " real" three time champ. Now the championships are
cheapened via a 4 or 5 lb weight gain.

Then you constantly read about the fighters in the several boxing magazines
and newspaper columns. Boxing is still a great sport but there are few fights now that you can't wait to happen and will actually occur. Too much
anticipation without actual results

Ps: I've watched baseball for 59 years and Sandy Koufax was
the best.

[billeau2]

Ruth and Brown were exceptional talents aand I have no doubt they would be dominant now. In one season Ruth actually had more home runs than any other team in the league. As deluded as baseball pitching is now with 30+ teams, it would be easy picking for the Babe.

football is a whole new game...you can hardly run a sweep anymore because the linebackers are twice as fast, strong and smart! And the QB's now a days? guys like Stabler (one of my favorites) would not last a day with these specialized offences, edimic memory mensa level QB's one has to be to survive as a QB these days. Do you guys really think a guy running against the likes of Artie Donovan could compete in today's NFL?

And Ruth? I doubt he ever faced a guy who could throw over 85 miles per an hour...though finess pitchers like Catfish Hunter might still get guys out.