Who Thinks Butterfly Overrates every single oppnent Ali Has Fought.

[butterfly1964]

LOL. Sounds like Carnera was "unbeatable", well, only beatable by someone weighing more than 260 pounds and being taller than 6'5" of course. If I had a nickel for everytime someone has used height and weight as a determining factor in "fantasy fights"...

For example:

no ******, that quote doesn't mean anything. ali has boxing skills, marciano has none. so that plus ali's size advantage would have marciano stopped by the 10th. if it were the other way around, if marciano had boxing skills and ali had none, then despite the size advantage ali had marciano would win. i had never said, nor will i ever said that size is the only determining factor in a matchup. so everyone jumping on me on this thread, including this ****** who started this thread about me, won't do you any good 'caus ya'll are dead wrong!

[butterfly1964]

Butterfly you don't know **** about Tyson.
Tyson could be prime untill he was 37. Its the TRAINING that makes you great. He didn't train for the fight against Douglas. But he did party all night in Tokio with Don King. Did you ever see the fight? No i guess. I watched the whole fight a lot of times, and he was not even half of the Tyson he was a few years back.

And your comment on the age and prime thing...not being in shape. Ali was not in shape against Frazier1 and he lost. Does that mean he wasn't in his prime???? hah

read this.

and all tyson had to do was train for the douglass fight and he would have won. he still had the physical ability to be the tyson of old, so he was in his prime. just because you are out of shape, doesn't mean he wasn't in his prime. frazier didn't prepare alot for the foreman fight but he was 29 and could have been in better condition and he still was in his physical prime. ali weighed 214 1/2 against chuvalo in 1966 the first time and 217 1/2 against brian london in 1966, when his weight was 210-212, but does that mean he wasn't in his prime? no, so what makes it any different for tyson. ali in '66 was 24 and frazier in '73 was 29 but tyson was only 23 and he was past his prime? get the heck out of here!

i don't know why you're jumping on me when i agree with you ******. just shows you like to start ****.

[butterfly1964]

you're not nuts ...Ali In HIS PRIME would have cleaned up the division. As to Ali's fighters being overrated...nonsense.

at least one person agrees with me. good karma for you!

[moondog0]

Ali was a great champion for many years, does Butterfly overrate him? I"m not sure but my opinion is that Foreman was definately one of the greatest fighters of all time, (not the greatest, but one of them). Ali beat Liston who was feared and a dominate puncher, Liston was not a great fighter and would have lost to Marciano, Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, and a host of other great fighters, so how good was Ali? He was very good at the Liston era, the long layoff took a lot of his prime, Frazier beat him, when he came back, Norton beat him in every fight he fought,(although only getting one decision) Ali was so in active in those fights it was riddiculous, Foreman made him great, he outfoxes a heavy puncher and wore him out, when he was exhausted he beat him. Foreman is the whole deal, without that win he had questionable competition....

[Brassangel]

Actually, he was agreeing with me, but I guess you can have it.

Your logic is still flawed here, butterfly. You frequently say things like, "Fighter A had this quality, while Fighter B didn't. Fighter A would destroy him!" Your statements are often "sweeping" and lack any evidence. Instead, you seem to assume that by stating something matter-of-factly, there's no room to refute. Everything is different once two guys get into the ring. You have to stop taking such a one-sided view, assuming that the fighters of your choice will always be perfectly prepared, and look at both ends of the spectrum.

As for overrating; I don't think butterfly overrates Ali's opponents. The only time I've seen anything like this happen from him is when he touts Sonny Liston as the guy who would have beaten everybody in history except Ali. Thus, making Ali's upset even bigger. Otherwise, he's just a big Ali fan; not an overrater. I will also second the fact that Ali vs. Foreman was the defining moment of his career. See my earlier post.

[butterfly1964]

Ali was a great champion for many years, does Butterfly overrate him? I"m not sure but my opinion is that Foreman was definately one of the greatest fighters of all time, (not the greatest, but one of them). Ali beat Liston who was feared and a dominate puncher, Liston was not a great fighter and would have lost to Marciano, Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, and a host of other great fighters, so how good was Ali? He was very good at the Liston era, the long layoff took a lot of his prime, Frazier beat him, when he came back, Norton beat him in every fight he fought,(although only getting one decision) Ali was so in active in those fights it was riddiculous, Foreman made him great, he outfoxes a heavy puncher and wore him out, when he was exhausted he beat him. Foreman is the whole deal, without that win he had questionable competition....

haha, liston is not a great fighter but foreman is a great fighter? liston is a way better boxer than foreman, has faster hands, better accuracy, and better defense. and marciano, louis, johnson, and dempsey couldn't hold liston's jock strap. do you actually think these guys could beat liston. just beacause ali did doesn't mean they could.

[MaximRecoil]

no ******

LOL @ "******"

that quote doesn't mean anything

What did you type it for then?

ali has boxing skills, marciano has none.

LOL @ "none". You and a fool are alike.

so that plus ali's size advantage would have marciano stopped by the 10th.

During the 1969 "computer fight", an overweight/out of shape 46 year old Marciano floored a 27 year old Ali with a body shot and offered to make it a real fight right then and there, because Ali was showing him disrespect. Ali didn't want any part of that and demanded more money due to the beating he was taking. He also stated that Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked (so much for your "none" foolishness, you know, since part of boxing skills = avoiding punches).

i had never said, nor will i ever said that size is the only determining factor in a matchup.

The only "points" you mentioned in the post I quoted were summaries of Marciano and Ali's height, weight and reach. Then to top off your brilliant display, you claimed that Marciano had a glass chin (lol). You then proclaimed:

the only chance the brockton blockbuster has is if he fought a 1960 ali, who was six-two 183, and about a 79" reach, still lol!

I don't see any mention of "boxing skills" there, or anything else other than your amazing ability to determine; when given two numbers; the bigger of the two.

[butterfly1964]

LOL @ "******"

What did you type it for then?

LOL @ "none". You and a fool are alike.

During the 1969 "computer fight", an overweight/out of shape 46 year old Marciano floored a 27 year old Ali with a body shot and offered to make it a real fight right then and there, because Ali was showing him disrespect. Ali didn't want any part of that and demanded more money due to the beating he was taking. He also stated that Marciano was a lot harder to hit with a jab than he looked (so much for your "none" foolishness, you know, since part of boxing skills = avoiding punches).

The only "points" you mentioned in the post I quoted were summaries of Marciano and Ali's height, weight and reach. Then to top off your brilliant display, you claimed that Marciano had a glass chin (lol). You then proclaimed:

I don't see any mention of "boxing skills" there, or anything else other than your amazing ability to determine; when given two numbers; the bigger of the two.

i assumed that any idiot would know that ali had better boxing skills than marciano so i left that out. i thought that was a given.

and have you ever seen a 27yr. old ali. that ***** was fat as hell! watch "the sweet science: my name is muhammad ali" he balooned to about 235-240. he wasn't in shape for that sparring session, and i don't believe that marciano gave him a bad beating either. all of ali's knockdowns he got up in 4 seconds or less, so how could marciano knock him out? i seen that clip of ali trying to get up. worst acting job i've ever seen! can you imagine ali struggling to get up like that? frazier on his best night couldn't ko a slowed down ali, so what makes you think marciano could ko a prime ali?

[MaximRecoil]

i assumed that any idiot would know that ali had better boxing skills than marciano so i left that out. i thought that was a given.

What does that have to do with anything? I commented on what you typed. I don't care what you think you might have meant to type now that you think about it. Try to pay attention here, alright?

and have you ever seen a 27yr. old ali. that ***** was fat as hell! watch "the sweet science: my name is muhammad ali" he balooned to about 235-240.

So? Marciano was 46 years old, hadn't been in the ring for 14 years and was overweight himself.

he wasn't in shape for that sparring session, and i don't believe that marciano gave him a bad beating either.

You don't believe it why? just 'cause? It was Murray Woroner himself that said "Ali took such a battering that he refused to continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars." Since Woroner set the whole thing up and was there, and you did not set the whole thing up, and was not there, then he is right and you are wrong, by default.

all of ali's knockdowns he got up in 4 seconds or less, so how could marciano knock him out?

By hitting him, apparently.

i seen that clip of ali trying to get up. worst acting job i've ever seen! can you imagine ali struggling to get up like that?

Sorry, but you didn't see anything. Like I said, you were not there. Ali getting floored by the body shot was not on the final cut of the movie. The account is from eye witnesses, including the ring doctor, Ferdie Pacheco. The only thing you have seen was the scripted 13th round KO from Marciano's left to the head.

worst acting job i've ever seen! can you imagine ali struggling to get up like that?

It wasn't bad acting, but of course, you are not on the right page in the first place.

frazier on his best night couldn't ko a slowed down ali, so what makes you think marciano could ko a prime ali?

What in the blue hell does Frazier have to do with anything? If Frazier KO'd Ali, it would not prove that Marciano could have, so why would Frazier not being able to KO Ali have any bearing on whether or not Marciano could KO Ali?

I don't know who would have won and neither does anyone else, which is why I take exception to your foolishness.

We all have our opinions on the matter, but you seem to think your opinions = facts.

LOL @ that.

[butterfly1964]

What does that have to do with anything? I commented on what you typed. I don't care what you think you might have meant to type now that you think about it. Try to pay attention here, alright?
So? Marciano was 46 years old, hadn't been in the ring for 14 years and was overweight himself.

You don't believe it why? just 'cause? It was Murray Woroner himself that said "Ali took such a battering that he refused to continue until he was guaranteed an additional two thousand dollars." Since Woroner set the whole thing up and was there, and you did not set the whole thing up, and was not there, then he is right and you are wrong, by default.
By hitting him, apparently.
Sorry, but you didn't see anything. Like I said, you were not there. Ali getting floored by the body shot was not on the final cut of the movie. The account is from eye witnesses, including the ring doctor, Ferdie Pacheco. The only thing you have seen was the scripted 13th round KO from Marciano's left to the head.
It wasn't bad acting, but of course, you are not on the right page in the first place.

What in the blue hell does Frazier have to do with anything? If Frazier KO'd Ali, it would not prove that Marciano could have, so why would Frazier not being able to KO Ali have any bearing on whether or not Marciano could KO Ali?

I don't know who would have won and neither does anyone else, which is why I take exception to your foolishness.

We all have our opinions on the matter, but you seem to think your opinions = facts.

LOL @ that.

it's a known fact that the first thing a fighter looses is speed and the last thing they lose is punching power. all ali had was speed and all marciano had was punching power, so without speed, ali would be crap in the ring, so marciano beating a slow ali doesn't mean anything.