Who Thinks Butterfly Overrates every single oppnent Ali Has Fought.

[supaduck]

And Sonny Liston.

that post above immediately wins the argument, now accept that Ali has the best resume.

[Marvelous63]

That's a good question and among others, I'd definately take the resumes of Sam Langford & Jimmy McLarnin over that of Ali's.

if your taking into account not only the quality of the opponenets hes beaten, but also the quality of opponents he lost to, than langfords is no comparison to ali. MaLarnin, in my opinion, is a step below langford as well

[Yogi]

if your taking into account not only the quality of the opponenets hes beaten, but also the quality of opponents he lost to, than langfords is no comparison to ali.

Langford's total number of fights against HOF'ers > Ali's total number of fights.

[Marvelous63]

Langford's total number of fights against HOF'ers > Ali's total number of fights.

Langford's number of losses and no contests > Ali's total fights.

[hellfire508]

I'm not so convinced.

If you take Langford's career at heavyweight - including losses, and put it against Ali's - including losses, I think Ali still wins.

Ali would have - 4 top 10 heavyweights - Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes.

That alone pretty much beats Langford's. He lost to Johnson - who is a top 10 heavyweight. Then you have Mcvea, Wills and Jeanette. I rank Norton and Patterson above them. Who else? The rest are basically nobodies, with the exception of a couple.

[Yogi]

I'm not so convinced.

If you take Langford's career at heavyweight - including losses, and put it against Ali's - including losses, I think Ali still wins.

Ali would have - 4 top 10 heavyweights - Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes.

That alone pretty much beats Langford's. He lost to Johnson - who is a top 10 heavyweight. Then you have Mcvea, Wills and Jeanette. I rank Norton and Patterson above them. Who else? The rest are basically nobodies, with the exception of a couple.

Why would you only consider Langford's Heavyweight career, though, when the original statement made was "any boxer ever and especially when Langford's prime weight was more around what a Middleweight or Super Middleweight today weighs (when Langford was a Heavyweight in weight, he was basically fat and had gone blind)?

Langford's Heavyweight resume is impressive, but if one was to go the complete opposite direction of you and not included the Heavyweights on Langford's resume, even then it still looks more impressive to me than does Ali's...

- Joe Gans (some consider him the greatest Lightweight of all-times)
- Barbados Joe Walcott (a top five Welterweight)
- Stanley Ketchel (top five Middleweight)
- Tiger Flowers (possible top ten Middleweight)
- Jack Blackburn (top fifteen Lightweight)
- Jack O'Brien (top fifteen Light Heavyweight)
- Kid Norfolk (top twenty Light Heavyweight)
- Dixie Kid, Dave Holly, etc.

And unlike Ali vs. Holmes, you can find sources claiming Langford got the best of each of these guys when they stepped into the ring with him.

Oh, and in a span of just less than two years, Sammy Angott fought Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Ike Williams, Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery...Ali and his "4 top 10 heavyweights" that he fought throughout his whole career doesn't even come close to that quality of opposition. That's three all-time top five/ten p4p fighters that Angott shared the ring with in that short time span, as well as a top five Lightweight in Ike Williams, and two other HOF Lightweights that made The Ring's all-time top ten at 135.

[Tha Greatest]

Why would you only consider Langford's Heavyweight career, though, when the original statement made was "any boxer ever and especially when Langford's prime weight was more around what a Middleweight or Super Middleweight today weighs (when Langford was a Heavyweight in weight, he was basically fat and had gone blind)?

Langford's Heavyweight resume is impressive, but if one was to go the complete opposite direction of you and not included the Heavyweights on Langford's resume, even then it still looks more impressive to me than does Ali's...

- Joe Gans (some consider him the greatest Lightweight of all-times)
- Barbados Joe Walcott (a top five Welterweight)
- Stanley Ketchel (top five Middleweight)
- Tiger Flowers (possible top ten Middleweight)
- Jack Blackburn (top fifteen Lightweight)
- Jack O'Brien (top fifteen Light Heavyweight)
- Kid Norfolk (top twenty Light Heavyweight)
- Dixie Kid, Dave Holly, etc.

And unlike Ali vs. Holmes, you can find sources claiming Langford got the best of each of these guys when they stepped into the ring with him.

Oh, and in a span of just less than two years, Sammy Angott fought Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Willie Pep, Ike Williams, Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery...Ali and his "4 top 10 heavyweights" that he fought throughout his whole career doesn't even come close to that quality of opposition. That's three all-time top five/ten p4p fighters that Angott shared the ring with in that short time span, as well as a top five Lightweight in Ike Williams, and two other HOF Lightweights that made The Ring's all-time top ten at 135.

0wned.

Ali was a great fighter, but the media really overrated him..
If he ever fought Louis, it would be soo one sided IMO.
I think Louis exposes him of his many flaws and takes him out in the early to mid rounds...

Do you really think Carnera would knock out Frazier in the first round though, Yogi?

[prtynacan]

Carnera is complete garbage. Probably the worst heavyweight champ of the last 100 years. Watch him fight Max Baer - it's laughable. He's so uncoordinated and slow. Modern guys like Frazier or Foreman would absolutely crush him. Carnera was basically a big guy with a pituitary gland problem, not a fighter.

I still say Lennox Lewis could beat nearly any heavyweight, if he's on his game. Granted, he's got a chin of glass, but he's huge, had skills and polish, and could hit like a truck. Maybe Ali's technical and unorthodox genius could get him, but it would be an extremely tough fight for Ali. Lewis would demolish Frazier and Foreman. Look at what Lewis did to Holyfield and Tyson - both of whom I think could beat Smokin Joe.

Oh and Joe Louis beat Ali? No chance - I don't think any champ prior to 1970 could take out Ali. The training and techniques were so much more raw back then. Louis was so much slower, had way less reach, and didn't have a great chin. Ali dances around him and takes him out. Louis lost bad to Max Schmeling and nearly lost to Billy Conn - Ali crushes him.

[Yogi]

Do you really think Carnera would knock out Frazier in the first round though, Yogi?

LOL!

Of course not, man...All I was trying to do there was illustrate how faulty Butterfly's logic generally is when he types in that "if so-and-so can do it" stuff of his in regards to mythical matchups.

[Tha Greatest]

LOL!

Of course not, man...All I was trying to do there was illustrate how faulty Butterfly's logic generally is when he types in that "if so-and-so can do it" stuff of his in regards to mythical matchups.

oooo, I thought so...

Do you think Primo Carnera was a good fighter, though?
I don't know much about him, lol...

What I'm trying to figure out is....Butterfly said nobody but Ali could have beaten Liston.....he said Louis even can't...

Funniest thing I've ever hard....