Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey

[Barn]

This is the first time I've seen someone say Dempsey was better defensively but I maybe people just assume Johnson was great defensively because of his style, rather than actually comparing the two fighters. I don't know, I think this would be best resolved by posting youtube clips and analysing the defensive capabilities of both fighters in this thread. That way it's something we can all see for ourselves.

[JAB5239]

This is the first time I've seen someone say Dempsey was better defensively but I maybe people just assume Johnson was great defensively because of his style, rather than actually comparing the two fighters. I don't know, I think this would be best resolved by posting youtube clips and analysing the defensive capabilities of both fighters in this thread. That way it's something we can all see for ourselves.

The problem we run into is lack of quality film. For instance, it is very difficult to see fighters parry punches on black and white film from a distance. Catching the little nuances on B&W flicker film is even more difficult. Thats why it is essential to use not only what you can see, but the trstimony of others who saw it first hand. Just my opinion.

[Barn]

I don't think it's too difficult. The main problem is speed but just playing the clip you're analysing over and over again usually does the trick.

Some of the Johnson and Dempsey fights are in terrific quality.

[Barn]

[JAB5239]

I don't think it's too difficult. The main problem is speed but just playing the clip you're analysing over and over again usually does the trick.

Some of the Johnson and Dempsey fights are in terrific quality.

We'll have to agree to disagree than, because I think there are all sorts of little things to be missed on B&W film. Kinda funny though, I was actually watching the Jihnson tribute on another window when I clicked back to check over here.

[Barry Allen]

I have Johnson higher, he was also better at defense CarlosG815.

[billeau2]

Well Johnson came from an era when fighters could do more things....Guys at that time had to grapple well, you couldn't expose yourself with a big punch because with the gloves being small you could take a real shot and get your teeth knocked out....like Ketchel against Johnson for example.

Dempsey was very good but Johnson was a lot better. Johnson would toy with Dempsey frankly. Johnson was not only good defensively but could beat you up inside, outside and all around. Also the jab with the front was a KO punch when done with bad intentions and Dempsey coming in with hooking shots would have tasted it right on the chin before he got to Johnson.

The thing about Johnson is that he was in addition to everything else very strong physically...he cut is teeth on being a strevedore (same lifting heavy shot that Maxie Bair did!). My point is that a swarming KO guy like Tyson or Dempsy could not impose on Johnson. Watch Johnson handle guys in the grapple!

Prime Johnson loses to very few.....He beat himself when he got lazy but when he was on forgetaboutit! Dempsey was damned good though

[JAB5239]

Ok Barn, I got an argument for you. I know you're not siding with Dempsey, I'd just like to hear you thoughts.

Dempsey went through hell against Luis Firpo before finally knocking him out being dropped himself. At the time Johnson was 45 years old and brought in as a sparring partner for Firpo. He was subsequently let go for making Firpo look bad because he could lay a glove on him. Styles make fights, but this is just, but this is just a little more cement stregthening my point.

[Debopam Roy]

I dont see this being a clear one-sided victory. Dempsey takes this, but Johnson would have put up one hell of a fight. However, I voted for Johnson in the poll. Why? Because you asked who was 'The Greatest' of the two. Jack Johnson for sure there.

[Barn]

Ok Barn, I got an argument for you. I know you're not siding with Dempsey, I'd just like to hear you thoughts.

Dempsey went through hell against Luis Firpo before finally knocking him out being dropped himself. At the time Johnson was 45 years old and brought in as a sparring partner for Firpo. He was subsequently let go for making Firpo look bad because he could lay a glove on him. Styles make fights, but this is just, but this is just a little more cement stregthening my point.

I don't think Dempsey was all that good defensively. He had decent foot speed so when he moved inside it was hard to catch him and he usually somewhat smothered his opponents attack as he moved inside, not giving them room to load up and stopping them from setting their punches up effectively as he was always punching when he did move to the inside as to keep his opponent busy.

I don't feel he had nearly as good defense as the likes of Tyson or Frazier demonstrated as their head-movement was much more effective.

On the other hand though it could be argued that Johnson was as defensively successful as he was due to his huge physical advantages he had over his opponents. This allowed him to tire them out but more importantly clinch them and move them effectively. I also think that Johnson benefited a lot from being the first HW to really box effectively rather than slug it out. I feel on the film we see he is mostly fighting against crude/smaller/rougher fighters that are easier to manipulate defensively than a fellow boxer.

No-one really gives Wlad credit for his defensive holding but people seem to rate Johnson as a defensive mastermind because of it.

On the whole I feel Johnson was good defensively for his time but circumstances were on his side and I think that his defensive methods are horribly past their sell by date now and he would get crushed if he tried some of that stuff in a modern day ring.