Todays athletes aren't always better

[Welsh Jon]

how many times does it have to be explained to you that boxing isnt fcking long jump you ******.

You are of course correct. The problem is I have lost count of the amount of times I have heard "in EVERY other sport the athletes of today are vastly superior to those of yesterday, why would boxing be any different?" so citing examples of when this is not neccesairly true in other sports is a logical defence.

The evolution (or lack thereof) of the long jump has no bearing on boxing. But by the same token the clear evolution in sports such as sprinting should not be used as an example of how there "must" have been a similar evolution in boxing.

[Cardinal Buck]

We know you're a complete idiot and your further demonstrate that idiocy by your insistence that what amounts to hair splitting is "significant".

I now expect you will ponder how many angels may prance simultaneously upon the head of a pin.

10.3 isn't good enough to have beaten a single person in the 100m with Bolt, jackass.

[StarshipTrooper]

10.3 isn't good enough to have beaten a single person in the 100m with Bolt, jackass.

^^^^^ Pea Brain sees hair, Pea Brain splits hair. Half second = split hair.

[StarshipTrooper]

Just think. 72 years and the only improvement is so miniscule that if you didn't have electronic timers and stop-action photos you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Secretariat winning the Preakness by 31 lengths is huge. Beating a time in 100m by a cvnt hair isn't.

[billeau2]

Yeah and it's more about technique than athleticism. The Gracies had better technique then the rest of the world caught up and kind of passed them by. The new generation seems to be starting to adapt though. It was about a style vs. a style and now it's just a fighter vs. a fighter. That's why they had to add weight classes to the sport.

The Gracies wanted to make a bucket o money. I don't begrudge them but when they saw that bucket of money it became inevitable they would become "second fiddle on their own orchestra."

Originally what stood out was how technique, when applied under a single consistant and constant training scenerio could so easily triumph any other martial artist who walked into that situation. The techniques, adapted from Judo and the unique Lute Livre fight sport environment in Brazil, was later given away to others for the big bucks. Take it from a martial arts teacher...besides the Koreans with Tae Kwon Do it had hitherto been extremely difficult to make any real money teaching martial arts.

The Gracies taught others how to beat the takedown, the mount and the guard. The new generation (as you put it) has done what any class of professionals do: they have used creativity, cross training, and training the same scenerio to come up with better techniques.

What is of interest to me, regarding technique is how much of an advantage it is....With the beginnings of the Gracies tourney one can see the result of that advantage. Heres a rhetorical question for you Anthony how do you think the older boxing guys would have done against the Gracies? I ask because I see a lot of excellent grappling from the old timers. they look like they knew enough about a sprawl, a standing grapple, to maybe deal with not getting taken down.

[billeau2]

Don't know much at all about American Football but I think it is a bit like it's cousin, Rugby League, the rules of rugby league have evolved much and more than once, it has been a trial and error approach but the Dave Brown's and Clive Churchill's would have needed at least a year or two to learn how the game is played now, vastly different. As such it is impossible to compare the game and players from different eras. Just imagine Churchill the little fullback and his eyes popping when he see's Johnathon Thurston and thinking, "that giant is a halfback ?". in Clive's day halfbacks were like 5 feet 3. Thurston is something like the height of Ali.

Sorry McGoorty I had prepared a post for you and this ****in computer which i hate ate it....I can't type it again so here is the abbreviated version

a) Football Basketball have been coopted by the draft system. From exotic club sports to slave auctions held called the "draft" the money put in makes for top performing athletes.... These guys are indeed chemically enriched and faster stronger and maybe even smarter than when these sports were in their middle aged and infancy. Think how nice it would be if boxing ws subsidized by the university system and held drafts for talented fighters via promoters bidding.

b) Baseball players sort of went from strong guys with incredible hand eye coordination to athlete. As a kid we watched the yankees, guys like thurmon munson who was a chunky strong guy, but today the ballplayers are much more traditional athletes.

Boxing has a different trajectory. the talent is less not more, it is nor subsidized and therefore has not benefitted from the human auction blocks known as the drafts. The farm system is worse in boxing now then it was. It is why a lot of these eastern euro fighters like Povatkin can be called a champion. Some see this as talent diffusing....well not from what i can see!

[billeau2]

Lombardi's Packer Sweep was actually one of the most technically-schemed plays ever created. Vince could give a two-hour lecture on the assignments of all eleven players.

The old Delaware Wing T was incredibly complex.

For its time.... Its not just the complexity of all players doing what is assigned it is the way a team operates offensively now a days. No more shotgun and find the open buttonhook reciever.... plays are scripted and the complexity is stiffling. Compare the sweep to a west coast offense, or the clock management of a parcels running play series. From blood and guts, smash mouth we now have the qb memorizing a playbook and every play called from the sidelines.

[Anthony342]

So your point is that athletes peaked in the early 90s? If not, why has nobody broken the long jump record for over 20 years with all these improvements in training and nutrition?

Shotput record hasn't been broken for 23 years.

Discus throw record hasn't been broken for 27 years.

High jump record hasn't been broken for 20 years

Pole vault record hasn't been broken for 19 years.

Agreed. Although, swimming and running records are often broken.

But, to support your argument, what about the fact that nobody has become lineal heavyweight champion 3 times since Ali or the fact that nobody has broken Joe Louis' record of 25 title defenses or Hopkins' middleweight record of 20?

[Anthony342]

The Gracies wanted to make a bucket o money. I don't begrudge them but when they saw that bucket of money it became inevitable they would become "second fiddle on their own orchestra."

Originally what stood out was how technique, when applied under a single consistant and constant training scenerio could so easily triumph any other martial artist who walked into that situation. The techniques, adapted from Judo and the unique Lute Livre fight sport environment in Brazil, was later given away to others for the big bucks. Take it from a martial arts teacher...besides the Koreans with Tae Kwon Do it had hitherto been extremely difficult to make any real money teaching martial arts.

The Gracies taught others how to beat the takedown, the mount and the guard. The new generation (as you put it) has done what any class of professionals do: they have used creativity, cross training, and training the same scenerio to come up with better techniques.

What is of interest to me, regarding technique is how much of an advantage it is....With the beginnings of the Gracies tourney one can see the result of that advantage. Heres a rhetorical question for you Anthony how do you think the older boxing guys would have done against the Gracies? I ask because I see a lot of excellent grappling from the old timers. they look like they knew enough about a sprawl, a standing grapple, to maybe deal with not getting taken down.

Probably not too well, unless they could keep the Gracies from pulling guard or avoid their muay thai leg kicks and knees to the face. Are you saying they only brought in guys they could beat? I just think that was the talent level then. The rest of the world caught up and Royce didn't do as well after his 2000 comeback against the better opponents. And I thought the fights then were called Vale Tudo.

[StarshipTrooper]

b) Baseball players sort of went from strong guys with incredible hand eye coordination to athlete. As a kid we watched the yankees, guys like thurmon munson who was a chunky strong guy, but today the ballplayers are much more traditional athletes.

Here's the thing though: Today's athlete doesn't hit a curveball any better than the chunky strong guy did. Of all the teams sports baseball is the most skill driven and least athletic driven. The athleticism may help you steal more bases but since teams try stealing far less than they used to any advantage in that is lost.