johnson vs. holyfield

[edgarg]

Whenever a fighter loses, you make excuses. He lost to willard, enough said, deal with it. It would have been different if he did this, if he did that, blah, blah, blah. Jack Johnson got ktfo by a cabdriver with 2 weeks of boxing lessons.

If it was a 20 rd fight or even a 25 rder Johnson had won hands down . They wanted to get rid of him his implacable enemies...A 45 round fight.,... Johnson had not raelly fought for years, hardly trained, was 37, a belly on his that stuck out (look at the picture). dwarfed, and STILLL beat Willard around the ring for 20 plus rounds.

Vastly under rated by ignoramuses who don't know boxing.

[edgarg]

Jack johnson never fought anyone as big as bowe and lewis, he was a giant in his time, outweighing his opponents by 20-30 pounds, i'd say holyfield beats him by decision.

He outweighed 2 opponents by that amount Langford and Ketchel. And after allowing them to put on a bit of a show (required by audiences and promoters then) half killed them. The film exists of his holding up a nearly unconscious Landford from gong down, even after 3 other KDs.i

[edgarg]

Jack johnson never fought anyone as big as bowe and lewis, he was a giant in his time, outweighing his opponents by 20-30 pounds, i'd say holyfield beats him by decision.

Ye a GIANT a full SIX huge feet tall. and 10 feet wide weighing 400 lbs. G''wan and pee up a tree.

[edgarg]

Johnson threw combinations, just not as many as modern fighters. You take Holyfield and have him throw combinations as he's used to and there's no way he makes it 20 or more rounds. You need to pace yourself for that length of a fight, especially if you're a heavyweight.

Johnson also had an economical style where he did as little as he had to and made the opponent work. It wasn't that he couldn't throw a ****load of punches, he just chose not too.

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Check out his fight with Frank Moran, a 6'1" 200 lb very physically strong and hard hitting heavyweight. This guy wings some hard shots at him but Johnson is poised and alert and ready for it all. He doesn't throw much because he's like a matador: stationary and seemingly there to be hit, but in actuallity, ready at all times to take advance of any mistakes the opponent makes.

Check out his strength in the clinches. More and more often gets the better of it in there as the fight goes on. It's apparent he has only a small strength advantage early on but by the end of the fight he's pushing Moran around like nothing. Impressive muscular endurance.

I don't mind the people who have Holyfield winning, but to say he blows Johnson away is ridiculous. Johnson was born for this sport, he had the perfect combination of learned ringsmarts and natural instincts.

In press descriptions of most of Johnson's fights, it generally sayd that "Jonson could hit him at will, and could have ended the fight at any time he chose". THAT speaks volumes.

Jim Jeffrres, although past his best was famous for his massive strength and athletic ability approaching Olympic levels is several categories.. Johnson pushed him around handles him like a baby, and hit him at will, and Jeff said that even at his best, he could never approach Johnson's ability. He was 6'2" and weighed 220 lbs without a scrap of fat.

Also he fought mos , people of his height and weight ,often a bit more occasionally a bit less, sometimes with mayb e2-3 lbs and 1/2 inch between them.
Just iike today.

[edgarg]

who wins? the galveston giant or the real deal?

vs.

Budd Schulberg, the most famous boxing writer, said in his "Sparring with Hemingway and other Legends of the Fight Game", that Johnson was so good, that during the Jeffries fight, whilst enduring the savage taunts and curses of "Gentleman James J. Corbett, and other famous past champions in Jeffries' corner, he answered each one with taunts fo his own, and carried on a ringside commentary better than Howard Cosell.

When fighting Tommy Burns, he deliberately exposed his vital parts and said "hit me there Tahmy", parodying a fake English accent, and when Burns would hit him there, he'd say, "It that the best you can do Tahmy"...Remember Burns had won his 9 previous title defences with all KOs.. So he had a hefty clout.

Schulberg says that no one today can conceivably understand or imagine the depth of racial hatred that was abundant then, or the staunchness that Johnson showed in not only enduring it, but mocking it . Ali had nothing to face compared to Johnson. And I'm presently reading the part of this book where the first Frazier-Ali match is being staged. .. .

For the information of all boxing fans, he also wrote "On the Waterfront" and "The Harder They Fall". both boxing classics.. And he lived until 2005, and never changed his mind.

There's another writer F.X. Toole .He wrote a wonderful book "Pound For Pound". The site "Read Any Book".. many thousands of books to read FREE. Next I expect to read "Undisputed Truth" by "you-know-who"...

Another great writer Nick Tosches's "The Devil and Sonny Liston"..Astonishing book. The enormous research must have taken his years and years.

The authors' names HAVE to be written in exactly as they are, either the usual first letter Capital, or even lower case letters.

[QueensburyRules]

Budd Schulberg, the most famous boxing writer, said in his "Sparring with Hemingway and other Legends of the Fight Game", that Johnson was so good, that during the Jeffries fight, whilst enduring the savage taunts and curses of "Gentleman James J. Corbett, and other famous past champions in Jeffries' corner, he answered each one with taunts fo his own, and carried on a ringside commentary better than Howard Cosell.

When fighting Tommy Burns, he deliberately exposed his vital parts and said "hit me there Tahmy", parodying a fake English accent, and when Burns would hit him there, he'd say, "It that the best you can do Tahmy"...Remember Burns had won his 9 previous title defences with all KOs.. So he had a hefty clout.

Schulberg says that no one today can conceivably understand or imagine the depth of racial hatred that was abundant then, or the staunchness that Johnson showed in not only enduring it, but mocking it . Ali had nothing to face compared to Johnson. And I'm presently reading the part of this book where the first Frazier-Ali match is being staged. .. .

For the information of all boxing fans, he also wrote "On the Waterfront" and "The Harder They Fall". both boxing classics.. And he lived until 2005, and never changed his mind.

There's another writer F.X. Toole .He wrote a wonderful book "Pound For Pound". The site "Read Any Book".. many thousands of books to read FREE. Next I expect to read "Undisputed Truth" by "you-know-who"...

Another great writer Nick Tosches's "The Devil and Sonny Liston"..Astonishing book. The enormous research must have taken his years and years.

The authors' names HAVE to be written in exactly as they are, either the usual first letter Capital, or even lower case letters.

- - Jeff a Dead Man Walking Anorexic that those in the know like John L knew. Does nothing for his legacy save for those idiotic Lineal Nutcases that boxing is noted for.

Burns was indeed a good fighter who took the fight to Johnson, and indeed he whooped Hart who had previously whooped Johnson in an unofficial title eliminator for a Jeff shot before he retired. That fight was so poor Jeff retired anyway, but nobody ever says Jeff ducked Hart because typical boxing experts ain't yet figured out how to follow a timeline of events and fighter development.

3 of Burns' title KOs were of Bill Squires, his compatriot in larceny, but no matter, Johnson ruined his reputation when he ducked the contractually agreed upon Langford fight in London and the Burns rematch in Canada.

[edgarg]

- - Jeff a Dead Man Walking Anorexic that those in the know like John L knew. Does nothing for his legacy save for those idiotic Lineal Nutcases that boxing is noted for.

Burns was indeed a good fighter who took the fight to Johnson, and indeed he whooped Hart who had previously whooped Johnson in an unofficial title eliminator for a Jeff shot before he retired. That fight was so poor Jeff retired anyway, but nobody ever says Jeff ducked Hart because typical boxing experts ain't yet figured out how to follow a timeline of events and fighter development.

3 of Burns' title KOs were of Bill Squires, his compatriot in larceny, but no matter, Johnson ruined his reputation when he ducked the contractually agreed upon Langford fight in London and the Burns rematch in Canada.

You're talking nonsense. Why would he have to "duck" tommy Burns,.or Langford. they were n where NEARLY as good enough to go more than a few REAL Rounds with him.

You bring up something so obscure that even I have never heard of them. Likely there was no one who'd put up the money for such mismatches, or Johnson was being barred by the authorities of those areas . There are 50 different reasons, assuming that such things were ever thought of, apart from being in your mind . Please provide links for these reports as I would like to know about them. This is a genuine request.

[Willie Pep 229]

You're talking nonsense. Why would he have to "duck" tommy Burns,.or Langford. they were n where NEARLY as good enough to go more than a few REAL Rounds with him.

You bring up something so obscure that even I have never heard of them. Likely there was no one who'd put up the money for such mismatches, or Johnson was being barred by the authorities of those areas . There are 50 different reasons, assuming that such things were ever thought of, apart from being in your mind . Please provide links for these reports as I would like to know about them. This is a genuine request.

The Internet(s) is a touch behind Queen when it comes to boxing history so it is unlikely you'll find any supporting links.

But I think it is obvious to anyone who wants to see it, that once champion JJ cherry picked his opponents, usually small or slow white fighters. It was not until he was desperate for a payday did he take on someone who just might beat him.

I am amused that you believe Havana was scheduled for 45 rounds just to 'get' Johnson.

Back in 1910 Johnson-Jeffries was scheduled for 45 rounds. Did they do that to put the older Jeffries at a disadvantage as well, or is it only a dirty trick when it plays against JJ not for him?

Johnson-Fynn 45 rounds as well.

Willard had to suffer every round JJ suffered and besides who cares who was the best 'boxer' - so what if JJ could outbox Willard for 20 rounds - a champion 'beats' he man - he doesn't wait for three fat men sitting ringside to tell him he won. Back then they fought to prove who was the best man not who was the better technician. That is for today's fans.

It's become too common to overstate that JJ was victimized. He did after all get to fight for the championship and then make money defending that title. So someone was treating him OK (Tex Rickard for one).

Absolutly, the white supremacist scum tried to destroy his career but he was a self destructive man as well.

BTW Sullivan-Corbett was to the finish.

[GhostofDempsey]

Holyfield would have stopped Johnson within 3 or 4 rounds. Even a cruiserweight version of Evander stops him as quickly.

[travestyny]

The Internet(s) is a touch behind Queen when it comes to boxing history so it is unlikely you'll find any supporting links.

But I think it is obvious to anyone who wants to see it, that once champion JJ cherry picked his opponents, usually small or slow white fighters. It was not until he was desperate for a payday did he take on someone who just might beat him.

I am amused that you believe Havana was scheduled for 45 rounds just to 'get' Johnson.

Back in 1910 Johnson-Jeffries was scheduled for 45 rounds. Did they do that to put the older Jeffries at a disadvantage as well, or is it only a dirty trick when it plays against JJ not for him?

Johnson-Fynn 45 rounds as well.

Willard had to suffer every round JJ suffered and besides who cares who was the best 'boxer' - so what if JJ could outbox Willard for 20 rounds - a champion 'beats' he man - he doesn't wait for three fat men sitting ringside to tell him he won. Back then they fought to prove who was the best man not who was the better technician. That is for today's fans.

It's become too common to overstate that JJ was victimized. He did after all get to fight for the championship and then make money defending that title. So someone was treating him OK (Tex Rickard for one).

Absolutly, the white supremacist scum tried to destroy his career but he was a self destructive man as well.

BTW Sullivan-Corbett was to the finish.

I'm sure the fight was obviously made a long one to the detriment of Jack Johnson. It's not that Willard didn't have to go through the same thing, but Willard was thought of as the man with the stamina to make it through other than being chinned by Johnson, and Johnson was thought of as the man who would have trouble making it to the finish line. There were various articles written around the fight that spoke of this. It didn't seem to be a secret. I remember reading an article in which Willard stated it plainly before the fight.