Just how good was Jim Jeffries?

[The Iron Man]

What was Johnson's ranking in 1904 when Jeffries retired? Because Jim obviously wasn't afraid to fight him 6 years into his retirement when he had gained 80+ pounds.

The situation was very different then, all the "white hopes" had failed to beat Johnson and Jeffries was the only guy left. I guess it was all the pressure and his pride being at stake that forces him to take the fight. That and the insane amount of money he was offered.

As for Johnsons ranking in 1904, he was the top contender and really the only logical contender. Making it even more absurd that Jeffries retired claiming he had beating everyone he needed to.

Don't get me wrong, I rate Jeffries but I think it is clear he was avoiding Johnson.

[banburner]

[QUOTE=Jim Jeffries;12267403]Different types of fighters, certainly. Johnson was tremendously gifted defensibly, but he didn't have Jeffries offense, (IMO) chin or stamina. Whether they were different classes of fighters is certainly arguable.[QUOTE]

Bit of an exaggeration on my part but I feel Johnson is a small step above Jeffries overal..

I hope you didn't ascertain this based on their match up?

Of course not, I just don't feel Jeffries style which was aggressive and brutish and was soley concentrated on wearing a man down and taking some to give some, would be effective against a fast and modern styled counter-puncher in Johnson.

You repeat that like it's a statement of fact, instead of your opinion.

Everything I say should be treated as opinion, it would be uneconomical use of time if I had to state everything was my view, especially in hypothetical threads when it's obvious no-one is correct nor wrong. I apologize if I appeared inconsiderate.

What was Johnson's ranking in 1904 when Jeffries retired? Because Jim obviously wasn't afraid to fight him 6 years into his retirement when he had gained 80+ pounds.

Johnson was clamouring for a shot as of 1902 after he beat his brother Jack Jeffries convincingly, even writing Jeffries a mocking letter about the victory.
When Jeffries retired Johnson had compiled wins against just about every good black fighter around and title shots were given to much less deserving opposition such as Jack Munroe. Not to be a boxrec warrior but he didn't belong in the same ring as Jeffries from a quick look at his record.

[SBleeder]

Don't get me wrong, I rate Jeffries but I think it is clear he was avoiding Johnson.

Then why on earth would he come back and fight him at a time when he had no chance of beating him?

Seems to me that a ducker would rather retire undefeated.


Incidentally, on the subject of the thread... Sam Langford was said to have been afraid of Jeffries.

[joseph5620]

Then why on earth would he come back and fight him at a time when he had no chance of beating him?

Seems to me that a ducker would rather retire undefeated.


Incidentally, on the subject of the thread... Sam Langford was said to have been afraid of Jeffries.

http://maltaboxing.net/blog/2011/03/...-boiler-maker/


This gives some insight on why he decided to come back and fight Johnson.

[banburner]

Then why on earth would he come back and fight him at a time when he had no chance of beating him?

Seems to me that a ducker would rather retire undefeated.


Incidentally, on the subject of the thread... Sam Langford was said to have been afraid of Jeffries.

I doubt Langford feared Jeffries, he might have said that to try and win over the white powers who would aid him in getting a title shot.

There's also reports Langford knocked Jeffries out cold in sparring before the Johnson bout.

[The Iron Man]

Then why on earth would he come back and fight him at a time when he had no chance of beating him?

Seems to me that a ducker would rather retire undefeated.


Incidentally, on the subject of the thread... Sam Langford was said to have been afraid of Jeffries.

I explained my reasons in that same post. Just my opinion.

[greynotsoold]

If you actually think that aprofessional fighter avoids somebody out of fear, you are ignorant about fighting and fighters. it is all about money. If jefferies would have been offered enough money to fight johnson before he retired, he would have fought him. Color Lines be damned, money talks.
There is this current belief among boxing 'fans', recent fans, that the only reason any black fighter ever lost a fight is because of racism or due to shady deals. Every white fighter avoided black fighters because they were afraid. (To the mods...I'm not being racist, this is the subject of how many boxing books these days)That **** gets tired.
Jefferies was a tough, strong fighter. As late as the 1960s guys like Nat Fleischer, who started RING magazine in 1922, had him among the top 5 heavyweights, above Jack Johnson. I have no opinion, but I refuse to call Jefferies a coward because he retired at the top, and I won't coronate Johnson "The Greatest" (next to Ali) because of some book some guy wrote 100 years after he died.
They were both men that lived their lives as best they could, fought honorably, and were both victims of their times, at least as in so far as they are viewed currently.

[Sugarj]

If you actually think that aprofessional fighter avoids somebody out of fear, you are ignorant about fighting and fighters. it is all about money. If jefferies would have been offered enough money to fight johnson before he retired, he would have fought him. Color Lines be damned, money talks.
There is this current belief among boxing 'fans', recent fans, that the only reason any black fighter ever lost a fight is because of racism or due to shady deals. Every white fighter avoided black fighters because they were afraid. (To the mods...I'm not being racist, this is the subject of how many boxing books these days)That **** gets tired.
Jefferies was a tough, strong fighter. As late as the 1960s guys like Nat Fleischer, who started RING magazine in 1922, had him among the top 5 heavyweights, above Jack Johnson. I have no opinion, but I refuse to call Jefferies a coward because he retired at the top, and I won't coronate Johnson "The Greatest" (next to Ali) because of some book some guy wrote 100 years after he died.
They were both men that lived their lives as best they could, fought honorably, and were both victims of their times, at least as in so far as they are viewed currently.

But not Nat himself! Nat Fleicher always stated that Johnson was the greatest:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=196029

The vast majority of the above have Johnson higher too.

[greynotsoold]

So Johnson was 1 and Jefferies 2, or 3 and 4. To me that implies a hotly contested fight, and may the best man win.

[Sugarj]

So Johnson was 1 and Jefferies 2, or 3 and 4. To me that implies a hotly contested fight, and may the best man win.

To be honest if they were both to have met prime for prime, I'm sure we would have been in for a good fight. The problem was that (for me) Johnson's prime was 1908-1910 and Jeffries's prime was 8-10 years before that.

That an old James Corbett was able to comfortably outbox Jeffries before being knocked out in both meetings doesn't bode too well for Jeffries. Prime Johnson was rather bigger, stronger, heavier handed, fresher and surely technically superior to the older version of Corbett.

I'd fancy that Jeffries best chance would be to simply weather a torrid storm for 20 rounds or so and then hope for a late KO or TKO. Not beyond consideration, but he'd take some merciful punishment enroute......and I'd be surprised to see him pull it off.

I really rate Jeffries chin, stamina, conditioning and heart. His training records make for impressive reading and his physical dimensions were terrific for the day. His technical limitations are where he'd always struggle with Johnson though. I'm sure he said after losing to Johnson that even if he had been in his prime he'd have still been beaten by him.