How Skilled Was Mike Tyson?

[BKM-]

If I am "making special rules" then so are you. I don't see how me thinking a jab that was underused and never a big factor isn't a great one is any more rule bending than you thinking it is a great jab.

His jab was a big factor in every fights he had in his prime. He would never have been as succesful setting up his great attacks without the jab. If you don't even realise this then I don't know what to tell you. Watch his fights, again. The jab can have many functions which is why it's so highly regarded. Just because one guy doesn't use it in the exact manner that YOU would have liked, doesn't mean it didn't benefit his own game perfectly(like for Tyson).

Chris Byrd was not a great fighter. He was a very good fighter, and a unique one. "Great" is used too loosely.

And you're still not making clear what your definitions of these words are.

[jabsRstiff]

His jab was a big factor in every fights he had in his prime. He would never have been as succesful setting up his great attacks without the jab. If you don't even realise this then I don't know what to tell you. Watch his fights, again. The jab can have many functions which is why it's so highly regarded. Just because one guy doesn't use it in the exact manner that YOU would have liked, doesn't mean it didn't benefit his own game perfectly(like for Tyson).



And you're still not making clear what your definitions of these words are.

Setting up attacks with a jab doesn't make a jab great...it just makes sense.

An accurate jab that controls the fight and keeps a guy off balance or punishes him is a GREAT jab. One that is used occasionally to set up other punches is not a great jab- it's a useful, decent one- that's all! Stop pretending like I'm setting up some high standard for what makes a jab great, and stop telling me to watch more Tyson. I have seen everyone of his fights, many of them several times, and I know what I'm looking at.

Tyson's upper body movement, his power, and his combinations were great....his jab just good.

[Ray Corso]

Fighting out of Cus's "peek a boo" style is a great way to get into shape and a very difficult style to master and fight against. Mike worked extremely hard at it and was worked extremely hard to get it right.
The jab is very important in this offense especially for Mike because it helped him not to square up so quickly. (one of his faults) The main reason for the jab was to read his opponents reactions from it and that would dictate what positions to get to and then what combinations would be most effective. His jab was very good!
The style he fought out of was a pressure method to get his opponents on the ropes or into the corners where everyone is the same height. His ability to work in combination was his most effective offensive quality. His power was utilized most effectively by double shots on one side also. Double right hands to the body then head in hook formation or upper cut was very difficult to defend. This was achieved by stepping off (on the opponents flank) after the initial attack was lauched. This insured more combination punching while serving as a defensive positioning! This style had defense built into the offense by foot postionings and hand techniques.
This is very difficult to master and Mike did a great job learning it too. Patterson and Jose Torres also worked this style beautifully but didn't have the natural power that Mike had and the double hooks are most effective when power is applied.
His overall defensive was good as long as he was on the offensive! When he stopped and stood up thats when trouble occured! Mike was very athletic and he had good coordination and basicly fought ambidextrious, slightly favoring his double right hand when inside (body hook/uppercut up the middle)
His defense was almost 100% movement because his short reach didn't allow for hand blocking/parring because that distance wouldn't favor him plus that defense is utilized basicly standing still. Mike needed to be in motion all the time atleast the upper movement needed to be ON as distances were closed.
The peek a boo is demanding and as fighters who grow up in it mature and flexability becomes more difficult to maintain the style becomes harder to maintain. I saw that with Floyd and Jose and both were victimized from opponents who worked to stand them up by applying pressure. The same that got Mike in trouble because he didn't step back then "step out" (to the side) as he was TAUGHT as a kid. He was also taught to free a hand on the side the ref wasn't on and punch with it but he never did it! He was taught to lift the opponent in the clinches and walk him off while punching and he never did it!
He was taught very well by Cus, and trained byTeddy, Kevin and the crew up at Cus's place. When the old man passed followed by Jimmy Mike failed to carry on the style the correct way. Thats when the style became a negative force because he didn't execute the style correctly. He stood in front of opponents and hestitated, then began standing up and trying to move his head without the bending at his waist, and moving his feet!
I believe without Cus and Cus's style Tyson would have been in prison much sooner than he was and never would have boxed anything but maybe oranges. He gets credit for working hard as a youngster and being schooled in many disciplines to achieve his dreams.

He became very successful using a very difficult style in the sport but I think its the only style that would have afforded him positive results. When he worked within the method and utilized the techniques correctly he was a force to be reckoned with. I give high marks to Mike for his dedication to Cus and working hard to attain what Cus saw for him in the future. Bottom line is, No Cuss, No Tyson! Ray Corso

[BKM-]

Setting up attacks with a jab doesn't make a jab great...it just makes sense.

No it makes it effective. Effectiveness and usefulness is what makes a great jab to me. Same for any punch for that matter.

An accurate jab that controls the fight and keeps a guy off balance or punishes him is a GREAT jab. One that is used occasionally to set up other punches is not a great jab- it's a useful, decent one- that's all!

Like I kept saying he has had fights where he did just that, but outjabbing bigger guys is irrelevant to you I guess.

Stop pretending like I'm setting up some high standard for what makes a jab great, and stop telling me to watch more Tyson. I have seen everyone of his fights, many of them several times, and I know what I'm looking at.

I will continue to tell you if you are talking like you have either not watched his fights for a long time or simply don't know what to look at. It's like I keep refresing your memories when I mention him outjabbing Biggs or Tucker or Smith and you're like "oh yeah, but I know that". And you're definitely setting your own standard for what a great jab is. It's the most well versed punch there is and can be used for more than just your definition.

Tyson's upper body movement, his power, and his combinations were great....his jab just good.

I see what your problem is here. You're comparing his jab to his greatest assets, but Tyson's greatest assets happen to be on another level that not too many heavyweights in history could surpass.

How about we just agree to disagree on Jabs. Cool?

[SplitSecond]

never thought he was that skilled
just a ball of massive strenght and speed for about 5 rds

also he had no inside game

[jabsRstiff]

"I see what your problem is here. You're comparing his jab to his greatest assets, but Tyson's greatest assets happen to be....."

Not what I am doing at all. I said those things about him because I wanted you to see I'm not just bashing him, and that I can see what he did that was special or great......his jab was not one of those things.

I can see that when Floyd Mayweather actually decides to go to someone's body, he's actually pretty damn good at it. But, I certainly would not say he has a great body attack. Oscar DeLaHoya actually had some fights where he hurt guys with his right hand or used it fairly well (Vargas). Did Oscar have a great right hand? Not in the least.

[DIB42]

never thought he was that skilled
just a ball of massive strenght and speed for about 5 rds

also he had no inside game

Not sure if this is a troll... but I'll bite...

Tyson had no inside game because if Tyson got inside you went 'night night.'

[Scott9945]

I just used the Green fight as an example. When he was in his prime he was totally capable of bobbing and weaving for 10 or 12 rounds. Yes, I stand by my statement that he's in the top two heavyweight champs of all time as far as skills. If you don't believe me, watch some old videos of him training on the heavy bag. Look at the combos he put together. Watch all of his fights from 86-90 except for the Douglas fight. He was far more skilled than a Frazier, Louis or Marciano..

Well I wouldn't watch heavy bag training to determine any fighter's skills. I'm not implying that Mike was unskilled. But to say he was "far more skilled" than Joe Louis, or even Marciano or Frazier, sounds ridiculous to me. Maybe if you saw them hitting a heavybag you'd be more impressed?

[Scott9945]

"I see what your problem is here. You're comparing his jab to his greatest assets, but Tyson's greatest assets happen to be....."

Not what I am doing at all. I said those things about him because I wanted you to see I'm not just bashing him, and that I can see what he did that was special or great......his jab was not one of those things.

I can see that when Floyd Mayweather actually decides to go to someone's body, he's actually pretty damn good at it. But, I certainly would not say he has a great body attack. Oscar DeLaHoya actually had some fights where he hurt guys with his right hand or used it fairly well (Vargas). Did Oscar have a great right hand? Not in the least.

Very well said.

[res]

Tyson DID NOT keep up the same head movement for 10 or 12 rounds. As one of the other posters mentioned, it was reduced significantly after about round 5. Something you have to remember about Tyson is that his defense and his offense were inextricable (that's how the peekaboo style works) so if his offense slows down his defense will. The Bobbing and weaving is not just a a defensive tool but also assisted his offense setting him up for shots.