Which middleweights would you pick to beat 1951 Robinson?

[StarshipTrooper]

......the likes of Stan Harrington!!!as if hes a bum, are you kiddiing me or you just don't know what the hell your talking about. Harrington was a top flight fighter for ten years straight, he beat and lost to ALL the top fighters back then. The guy was tuff as hell and had NO fear who he fought and fought ALL the best. Being 55 & 16 or what ever the hell his record was means nothing back then. Only today does a guy need to be undefeated or have 2 or 3 looses or hes a bust. These kids today fight twice a year once there records are built up fighting "dead people" !!! Take away HBO and years ago closed circuit and try fighting on a "live circuit" then you'll see real fighters fighting hard in every second of every round.
Heres the thing Mr. Poet, Sugar Ray was fighting "young up and coming guys not old guys like Leonard did. Sugar Ray fought top contenders not pretenders. To disgrace a man like Harrington tells me everything I need to know about your knowledge of boxing from that era. Go look at his record, the guy was a pro fighting a pro circuit his wins and looses were against some pretty well known fighters. Well their known by peiple who know boxing anyways. Obviously not you. Ray

The point is, Harrington was a fringe contender and a fighter a prime Ray Robinson would NEVER have lost to. Yet you criticise Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran for losing well past their primes to Hector Camacho, who, like it or not, was a top fighter at the time. Camacho was 62-3 at the time and six months away from a shot at De La Hoya's Welterweight crown.

The bottom-line is washed-up fighters lose to guys they never would have lost to in the primes. They ALL do if they hang around long enough. It happens, regardless of how good you were in your prime. You can't excuse it in one instance and slam someone for it in another.

Poet

[Sugarj]

I'm not sure why Leonard would even be mentioned as a middleweight. He was done by then and the only reason he did well enough in the Hagler fight was he waited those YEARS prior so Hagler fought a few more fights and at the end you have fights that are tuffer than they would be in your prime. Leonard was beaten up by Camacho, Camacho Really!!! That guy couldn't break an egg yet he beat Duran too, twice if I remember!!!! Let me tell you all something, nothing like a Camacho would ever come close to beating Sugarman, no way no how. As for Leonard in the welter division he could be a problem for Sugar man because of his speed of foot and hand. Speed is a problem when your looking to time someone weither its your punches to be thrown or theirs coming to you. I think Leonard could be a problem until Sugar boxed and pressured him for some rounds. If Leonard moved like he could the result might take longer to resolve, I do believe Sugar gets him but Leonard might sneak to the distance. You can't totally under estimate talent thats at a high level and Leonard was a supreme athlete.
Hagler vs Sugarman would be interesting the difference would be that Leonard did hit him fairly easily and I think Marvin gets hit with most of those shots even in his prime years. When Hagler gets hit often or hard he abandons his boxing skills and turns back his clock to Philly times. Thats when when Sugarmans chances gets better. Someone stalking Robinson and dropping their hands to punch usually get hit and Sugarman can hurt any fighter and if he gets you really timed your going out. LaMotta always said Sugar didn't drop him but he was walking around knocked out on his feet a few times. I love Marvin but when he looses his cool hes very predictable he learned tuff lessons from another name stealer known as Sugar but Seals could fight and Marvin went back and got even with Ray. Theres a fighter I never hear mentioned here. Seals was good, and a big time crowd pleaser.
If Leonard had the guts he could have faced Marvin years before all the "oldies" bouts took place but he knew better. Let the guy fight some more maybe loose a step or two or three and thats what happened. Sugarman rules, theres a reason boxing historians think he is the number one boxer/puncher of all time. Look at his accomplishments, who he fought, when he fought, how often he fought, ducked NO one, gave return mastches ALWAYS. Fought an animal like Lamotta 5 times!!! Ali was great but not the Greatest, that was Sugar Ray there should be no reason to say his last name but so many think if its before their time its not reality. HA! Boxing has evolved but greatness doesn't come around very often, especially when it last 20 years and hundreds of fights. Remember 100 & 0 before a defeat!!! Only one man..the real Sugar Ray. Ray.

Leonard was 10 years after Hagler when he fought Camacho in 1997. Leonard was clearly near as dammit shot against Norris in what? 1991. No surprise that without any warmup fights or ring activity in those six years, pushing him past 40 that he was going to lose........

That Camacho would have probably beaten the last version of Robinson too.

[Barn]

Leonard was 10 years after Hagler when he fought Camacho in 1997. Leonard was clearly near as dammit shot against Norris in what? 1991. No surprise that without any warmup fights or ring activity in those six years, pushing him past 40 that he was going to lose........

That Camacho would have probably beaten the last version of Robinson too.

Last version of Hagler would have beaten Camacho.

[them_apples]

The point is, Harrington was a fringe contender and a fighter a prime Ray Robinson would NEVER have lost to. Yet you criticise Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran for losing well past their primes to Hector Camacho, who, like it or not, was a top fighter at the time. Camacho was 62-3 at the time and six months away from a shot at De La Hoya's Welterweight crown.

The bottom-line is washed-up fighters lose to guys they never would have lost to in the primes. They ALL do if they hang around long enough. It happens, regardless of how good you were in your prime. You can't excuse it in one instance and slam someone for it in another.

Poet

pff camacho didn't win. Same goes for Pazienza

[joseph5620]

Hagler in his prime fought a very disciplined fight more often than not IMO.

You're right, he did.

[Ray Corso]

Hees the main point about these types of fights, Harrington took a punch into the fight with him. guys who can punch don't loose that ability so their chances are more realistic even when their other skills eroid. Guys like Camacho never could punch it makes them atleast a "safe" opponent and if you think that Harrington was an easier fight then a Camacho you really have never been there. Any fighter will tell you they'll face the boxer over the guy that can punch. Being bewildered in a match beats they hell out of being "hurt"! I doubt you knew who Harrington was before I mentioned him. I met the guy and your telling me something about a guy I met and who fought a good friend of my families. I met Ray Leonard on a number of occasions, he trained in my gym for his 4th or 5th fight. Your talking about fighters as if you know them and you don't I did and I boxed and I trained and I managed and your a fan! Why not listen and learn, are you one of those guys who goes under your car with the mechanic and talks to him while hes working? I bet you are. Everyone has an opinion its like an A..H..! Butt whats it based on, facts and actually knowledge or reading and watching a video? Ray Corso

[StarshipTrooper]

Hees the main point about these types of fights, Harrington took a punch into the fight with him. guys who can punch don't loose that ability so their chances are more realistic even when their other skills eroid. Guys like Camacho never could punch it makes them atleast a "safe" opponent and if you think that Harrington was an easier fight then a Camacho you really have never been there. Any fighter will tell you they'll face the boxer over the guy that can punch. Being bewildered in a match beats they hell out of being "hurt"! I doubt you knew who Harrington was before I mentioned him. I met the guy and your telling me something about a guy I met and who fought a good friend of my families. I met Ray Leonard on a number of occasions, he trained in my gym for his 4th or 5th fight. Your talking about fighters as if you know them and you don't I did and I boxed and I trained and I managed and your a fan! Why not listen and learn, are you one of those guys who goes under your car with the mechanic and talks to him while hes working? I bet you are. Everyone has an opinion its like an A..H..! Butt whats it based on, facts and actually knowledge or reading and watching a video? Ray Corso

When I want to know about how a car works I'll go ask the engineer who designed it not the grease monkey under the hood.

Poet

[Ray Corso]

Your comment is ridiculous, your talking to someone who has done ALL the tasks in boxing from throwing and taking to promoting and managing to training. Whats your experience? Talking on a forum about other peoples lives and how they earned their livelyhood? Trainers are designers, if you ever were into boxing you'd know that. To be relavant means something, you seem to think that your pretty knowledgable. Tell me who have you trained? Who have you fought? What boxing arenas have you appeared in as a fighter or trainer? What gym do you own and who are you affiliated with? Tell us. Ray

[Barn]

Your comment is ridiculous, your talking to someone who has done ALL the tasks in boxing from throwing and taking to promoting and managing to training. Whats your experience? Talking on a forum about other peoples lives and how they earned their livelyhood? Trainers are designers, if you ever were into boxing you'd know that. To be relavant means something, you seem to think that your pretty knowledgable. Tell me who have you trained? Who have you fought? What boxing arenas have you appeared in as a fighter or trainer? What gym do you own and who are you affiliated with? Tell us. Ray

I own the Kronk gym.

I trained Thomas Hearns, fought Muhammad Ali in the amateurs. I fought at MSG twice on an undercard.

[Sugarj]

Last version of Hagler would have beaten Camacho.

I totally agree.