How would Jack Johnson versus Joe Louis play out

[Sugarj]

[QUOTE=Terry A;11290055]

I seem to remember Johnson battering Tommy Burns from pillar to post with fusillades of uppercuts, straight rights and his speciality winging left hooks.
QUOTE]

With all due respect SugarJ, Tommy Burns is no Joe Louis.

Joe Louis did that to most everybody he fought. Remember what he did to Schmeling the 2nd time out?

Joe Louis beats JJ in what most likely would be a distance fight. If there was to be a KO, naturally, it would be Joe KOing JJ.

My comments were in reply to Rubensonny about Johnson's combination punching. The Tommy Burns reference was regarding combinations that Johnson threw that night. Nothing to do with Joe Louis or how a Louis vs Johnson match would go.

As for Louis vs Schmelling 2, that was one of the biggest no shows in boxing history. I'm a great admirer of Max, but all he attempted that night was one right hand......and it landed bless him!! The poor guy froze, he barely attempted to stop Louis treating him like a punching bag. He didn't let his hands go with reckless abandon when the going got tough. He accepted his beating without defiance.

Heaven knows why? Perhaps he knew that Louis would have cottoned on to his successes in the first match, perhaps he was sick of being used as a **** propaganda tool. Who knows?

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;11290342]

My comments were in reply to Rubensonny about Johnson's combination punching. The Tommy Burns reference was regarding combinations that Johnson threw that night. Nothing to do with Joe Louis or how a Louis vs Johnson match would go.

As for Louis vs Schmelling 2, that was one of the biggest no shows in boxing history. I'm a great admirer of Max, but all he attempted that night was one right hand......and it landed bless him!! The poor guy froze, he barely attempted to stop Louis treating him like a punching bag. He didn't let his hands go with reckless abandon when the going got tough. He accepted his beating without defiance.

Heaven knows why? Perhaps he knew that Louis would have cottoned on to his successes in the first match, perhaps he was sick of being used as a **** propaganda tool. Who knows?

I think he knew he was in the Ring with a different Louis than the first go round. Joe wasn't out playing golf and ****ing every broad in town this time instead of training. He wanted this win more than any other (in my opinion) and Im sure Schmeling could sense that.

[Sugarj]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;11290364]

I think he knew he was in the Ring with a different Louis than the first go round. Joe wasn't out playing golf and ****ing every broad in town this time instead of training. He wanted this win more than any other (in my opinion) and Im sure Schmeling could sense that.

Agreed on all counts.

Louis was a different guy altogether in the return. But so was Schmelling, I've never felt easy watching Max's performance that night......he clearly suffered badly and absorbed nasty punishment, so no question of him throwing the fight. But I've always felt that he willingly accepted the punishment for some strange reason.

No attempts to circle away from the onslaught, no attempts at clinching. He took his beating like an admonished teenager who rightfully knew that he deserved his Father's belting.

Schmelling was normally such a dignified warrior, that performance still leaves me feeling odd!

[JAB5239]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;11290402]

Agreed on all counts.

Louis was a different guy altogether in the return. But so was Schmelling, I've never felt easy watching Max's performance that night......he clearly suffered badly and absorbed nasty punishment, so no question of him throwing the fight. But I've always felt that he willingly accepted the punishment for some strange reason.

No attempts to circle away from the onslaught, no attempts at clinching. He took his beating like an admonished teenager who rightfully knew that he deserved his Father's belting.

Schmelling was normally such a dignified warrior, that performance still leaves me feeling odd!

He didn't associate himself with the **** political party but besides the aura of Joe's determination he must have felt immense pressure knowing that not only Hitler but the vast majority of his country were counting on him to uphold the image of Aryan superiority. It must have taken great courage just to walk to the ring that night let alone know you're going to be locked in with a hungry, caged tiger. Schmeling was a great man, but I don't envy the position he was in that night one bit.

[Kid McCoy]

To be fair their sizes are more similar than I'd remembered, in their respective primes Johnson outweighed Louis by around half a stone, but I suppose its not much.

As for the fight, I don't see Johnson being aggressor. I can see Louis shuffling forward having some success with the jab but not getting close enough to get combinations off. I think Johnson would be quick to tie up when in range and whip in the odd nasty uppercut when he had a free hand.

True, Louis's best chances would arrive when Johnson rushed him with uppercuts and hooks before clinching but I've got a feeling Louis would ship punishment at the same time. Louis had slightly the heavier hands but Johnson the better chin. I don't favour one over the other in terms of handspeed.

Another factor that hasn't been touched on is mental games. Johnson was a master at getting a man off his game, frustrating and humiliating opponents. Louis was so solid mentally, but I'm not sure how he would handle Johnson's taunts, applause and references to his mother etc. It might cause Louis to fight with more pace and reckless abandon than we'd be used to seeing.

Johnson having a better chin is arguable. I'd say Louis was the much harder hitter. Johnson's punch was solid but he couldn't starch people the way Louis did. I still say Louis' quick short combinations are going to make the difference here. Louis struggled with guys who had quick feet (ie Conn), but Johnson doesn't have the type of footwork. He was more a flat-footed counterpuncher.

On the subject of mental games, Tony Galento tried the trash talk with Louis and it didn't do him much good. For his part, Louis' deadpan emotionless expression was enough to leave some of his opponents scared sh#tless before they even stepped in the ring. Max Baer had a panic attack in the dressing room.

No attempts to circle away from the onslaught, no attempts at clinching. He took his beating like an admonished teenager who rightfully knew that he deserved his Father's belting.

I don't think Louis gave Schmeling a chance to get away. One of those punches fractured his vertebrae, just froze him.

[JAB5239]

Johnson having a better chin is arguable. I'd say Louis was the much harder hitter. Johnson's punch was solid but he couldn't starch people the way Louis did. I still say Louis' quick short combinations are going to make the difference here. Louis struggled with guys who had quick feet (ie Conn), but Johnson doesn't have the type of footwork. He was more a flat-footed counterpuncher.

On the subject of mental games, Tony Galento tried the trash talk with Louis and it didn't do him much good. For his part, Louis' deadpan emotionless expression was enough to leave some of his opponents scared sh#tless before they even stepped in the ring. Max Baer had a panic attack in the dressing room.

"The definition of fear. Standing across the Ring from Joe Louis and knowing he wants to go home early." -Max Baer

[New England]

[QUOTE=Sugarj;11290342]

My comments were in reply to Rubensonny about Johnson's combination punching. The Tommy Burns reference was regarding combinations that Johnson threw that night. Nothing to do with Joe Louis or how a Louis vs Johnson match would go.

As for Louis vs Schmelling 2, that was one of the biggest no shows in boxing history. I'm a great admirer of Max, but all he attempted that night was one right hand......and it landed bless him!! The poor guy froze, he barely attempted to stop Louis treating him like a punching bag. He didn't let his hands go with reckless abandon when the going got tough. He accepted his beating without defiance.

Heaven knows why? Perhaps he knew that Louis would have cottoned on to his successes in the first match, perhaps he was sick of being used as a **** propaganda tool. Who knows?

joe louis is arguably the most potent puncher ever, considering his size, power, and level of offensive craft


in other words, he's the last guy on the planet against whom you can take sustained punishment


it had nothing to do with ****'s, i'll assure you


the better fighter went out there and imposed his gameplan (that involved punches that no man can sustain)

[Sugarj]

[QUOTE=JAB5239;11290414]

He didn't associate himself with the **** political party but besides the aura of Joe's determination he must have felt immense pressure knowing that not only Hitler but the vast majority of his country were counting on him to uphold the image of Aryan superiority. It must have taken great courage just to walk to the ring that night let alone know you're going to be locked in with a hungry, caged tiger. Schmeling was a great man, but I don't envy the position he was in that night one bit.

It could be argued that no man other than possibly Jim Jeffries (in his match with Jack Johnson) has been subject to more pressure over a fight. I quite agree, not an enviable position at all.

Even still, he didn't look like a bucket of nerves (not in the Michael Spinks or Bruno 2 sense when facing Mike Tyson for example)......and he seemed to do nothing to make Louis's punishment any less painful. Strange.......

He was a great man though, and certainly no ****.

And he did a good job of outliving everyone who beat him in the ring too!!!!!

[Sugarj]

Johnson having a better chin is arguable. I'd say Louis was the much harder hitter. Johnson's punch was solid but he couldn't starch people the way Louis did. I still say Louis' quick short combinations are going to make the difference here. Louis struggled with guys who had quick feet (ie Conn), but Johnson doesn't have the type of footwork. He was more a flat-footed counterpuncher.

On the subject of mental games, Tony Galento tried the trash talk with Louis and it didn't do him much good. For his part, Louis' deadpan emotionless expression was enough to leave some of his opponents scared sh#tless before they even stepped in the ring. Max Baer had a panic attack in the dressing room.



I don't think Louis gave Schmeling a chance to get away. One of those punches fractured his vertebrae, just froze him.

Granted, I believe Louis hit harder than Johnson, but I don't think it was that much greater. Johnson of course hit Stanley Ketchell hard enough to leave his teeth embedded in his glove. (Middleweight or no middleweight, that takes some doing).

As for the subject of chins, Louis had plenty of heart......and came back to win from most of his knockdowns. But he was knocked down more times than Johnson in their respective primes......and 'out' once. Also Johnson absorbed some nasty blows from opponents and applauded them in the middle of the ring. The guys chin looked pretty solid to me.

'Flat footed counter puncher?' A counter puncher certainly. But flat footed? I always found Johnson to be pretty mobile and quite quick on his feet.

As for Galento, true his trash talk didn't work in the end. However, Louis was more reckless that night......he was decked too! Against Johnson he would have come off far worse with reckless abandon.

And Schmelling did have chances to get away, the fight wasn't as frantic as say Tyson Spinks. The punch that allegedly broke one of Schmelling's vertebre was thrown while Max was on the ropes.

[Terry A]

Just for the record....

In post #32 & post #37, I'm quoted but it's not me who wrote what was quoted. Those quotes are from other quotes not quoted correctly by those who quoted my other quotes.

I'm on Joe Louis's side in this debate.

All you fellas are making good points, so please, continue to have at it!

***NOTE TO JAB5239.....That's an awesome quote by max Baer that you posted! I never heard that one before. And ain't it true!