Top 50 Non U.S. ATG LIST

[JAB5239]

JAB he said he needed 8 full fights...by the way does he rate a fighter with 7 full fights...I mean I am curious

That is my point, his hypocrisy and double standards.

[Welsh Jon]

Oh, do you mean the mention of Darcy ??...... yes that had nothing to do with your statements above..... It was simply an add on on my part. I think he's either in that top 10 or at least very close as I think that because the MW division is traditionally been an American domain for the most part,..... Monzon and Darcy are probably the best two MW's for this list....... The Langford's and Carpentier's were famous at many weights,..... therefore way up there......... It's in the lower divisions where the hottest competition is for spots on this list..... Just think Mexico and the rest of Latin America and you get my drift.

I'm sorry but I don't see Les Darcy as even a top 5 non-US middleweight. I mean there's Carlos Monzon, Bob Fitzsimmons, Dick Tiger and Nino Benvenuti that I'd say were defo above him. And there's several more that would be disappointed to be rated behind him.

I don't like making pound for pound lists, cos honestly how can you compare Carlos Monzon to Jimmy Wilde? But that said if Darcy struggles to make a top 5 (non-US) list in his weight class how could he be considered a top 10 fighter (non-US) pound for pound?

I've really enjoyed reading your posts on Les Darcy, but seriously I think your rating much too high.

[SCtrojansbaby]

That is my point, his hypocrisy and double standards.

7 out of about 50 fights is very reasonable. 8 out of 150 or how ever many fights Sugar Ray Robinson had is the bare minimum.

Also not sure if you were talking about Humberto Gonzalez but he has more then 7 fights available. Just about all his non South Korea title fights are out there.

[JAB5239]

7 out of about 50 fights is very reasonable. 8 out of 150 or how ever many fights Sugar Ray Robinson had is the bare minimum.

You still haven't explained your formula on this whole 8 fights minimum deal. If you've seen Robinson fight 7 times against top comp than you know what his capabilities are, end of story. And if you've read the newspaper accounts of these fights they'll pretty much match up with how the fights actually played out. Thats why it is ridiculous not to take the word of not just one newspaper report of a Greb fight, but several that echo each other on a consistent basis. You're inferring that these people are somehow in cahoots and lying about a mans greatness even though it's ridiculous to believe they were even thinking how their articles of him would be used to help judge him some 85 years later.

[SCtrojansbaby]

You still haven't explained your formula on this whole 8 fights minimum deal. If you've seen Robinson fight 7 times against top comp than you know what his capabilities are, end of story. And if you've read the newspaper accounts of these fights they'll pretty much match up with how the fights actually played out. Thats why it is ridiculous not to take the word of not just one newspaper report of a Greb fight, but several that echo each other on a consistent basis. You're inferring that these people are somehow in cahoots and lying about a mans greatness even though it's ridiculous to believe they were even thinking how their articles of him would be used to help judge him some 85 years later.

8 is just a # usually I would say you have to watch at least 25% or so of there title/major fights to rank a fighter. But regardless you said there are only 5 so who cares.

As for reading newspapers.... I am sure you don't think Manny Pacquiao is the greatest fighter of all time but if you just read newspaper articles about him over the past 3 or 4 years they would pretty much all tell you he was the greatest of all time.

Either way its ridiculous for you people to worship fighters like Sugar Ray Robinson who retired before most of you were born yet no very little about Humberto Gonzalez an ATG who fought in the 90s.

[JAB5239]

8 is just a # usually I would say you have to watch at least 25% or so of there title/major fights to rank a fighter. But regardless you said there are only 5 so who cares.

As for reading newspapers.... I am sure you don't think Manny Pacquiao is the greatest fighter of all time but if you just read newspaper articles about him over the past 3 or 4 years they would pretty much all tell you he was the greatest of all time.

Either way its ridiculous for you people to worship fighters like Sugar Ray Robinson who retired before most of you were born yet no very little about Humberto Gonzalez an ATG who fought in the 90s.

Im talking about fight descriptions and knowing about their comp as a way to judge. Im able to look at Pacs resume and that of other greats and know it doesn't stack up.

And please don't even try to front like you know anything of Gonzalez besides what boxrec tells you. At the very least I can promise I know as much about him as you. The difference is that Im able to admit when Im not versed in the history of a fighters opponents or the division.

[SCtrojansbaby]

Im talking about fight descriptions and knowing about their comp as a way to judge. Im able to look at Pacs resume and that of other greats and know it doesn't stack up.

And please don't even try to front like you know anything of Gonzalez besides what boxrec tells you. At the very least I can promise I know as much about him as you. The difference is that Im able to admit when Im not versed in the history of a fighters opponents or the division.

You know his resume doesn't stack up because you have watched his opponents fight dozens of times. Without any video you would be on here quoting Bob Arum calling him greater than Muhammad Ali

As for Gonzalez I have watched almost all his major fights WTF does boxrec have to do anything? Either way I wasn't speaking about just you, its most people here who worship fighters who died before they born yet know very little about an ATG from the 90s Humberto Gonzalez.

[McGoorty]

I'm sorry but I don't see Les Darcy as even a top 5 non-US middleweight. I mean there's Carlos Monzon, Bob Fitzsimmons, Dick Tiger and Nino Benvenuti that I'd say were defo above him. And there's several more that would be disappointed to be rated behind him.

I don't like making pound for pound lists, cos honestly how can you compare Carlos Monzon to Jimmy Wilde? But that said if Darcy struggles to make a top 5 (non-US) list in his weight class how could he be considered a top 10 fighter (non-US) pound for pound?

I've really enjoyed reading your posts on Les Darcy, but seriously I think your rating much too high.

Well I'm glad you read my articles on Darcy. I'm just sorry you still rate him so low. He's better than Nino, and I am a bit of a Nino fan, I also rate him above Tiger without any qualms. Look mate It's like this,...... you either listen to such an expert as Jack Kearns, who rated Darcy as THE best MW ever (that was 1928 when he said it), Kearns and many others also had the same opinion, most of his opponents said he was the best fighter in the world, not everybody but just about everyone who saw him. Or you can choose to regard all those many, many claims as exaggerations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When Kearns said that, it was because he'd seen every top MW, Fitzsimmons, Ryan, Ketchel, Greb, Gibbons and Gibbons, Walker, Flowers......... and he rates Darcy as greater than all of them....... now I ask you, what would Kearns say to you if you told him that Benvenuti or Tiger would beat Ketchel or Greb ?????.... I bet I have an idea. The thing is mate you are overiding those who saw Darcy and those above,.... and you haven't, but you are still making the call that you may know more about it than them. Personally, I bow to those opinions, especially when they are not Australians (Kearns is American),............................. I am interested to know your reasons for what you said, you have a right to make a statement without reasons,.... but since you have, I would like to understand where you are coming from, so please tell me why,..... from such old film maybe,.... Benvenuti looks pretty good in colour, so Darcy is at a disadvantage, so is it because when you watch the film of him he looks somehow average in ability,.... mate if Darcy is just average,...... then those old-timers must be all crude, clumsy...... I don't know, I don't know what more to say until you can give me some sound reasons why Darcy is not even in the top 300 ATG's (if he isn't top 50 on this list, then that's where he'd be on your list with the U.S. included,...... you do understand that the U.S.A. has provided 3 great fighters to 1, by the rest of the world combined).

[McGoorty]

You still haven't explained your formula on this whole 8 fights minimum deal. If you've seen Robinson fight 7 times against top comp than you know what his capabilities are, end of story. And if you've read the newspaper accounts of these fights they'll pretty much match up with how the fights actually played out. Thats why it is ridiculous not to take the word of not just one newspaper report of a Greb fight, but several that echo each other on a consistent basis. You're inferring that these people are somehow in cahoots and lying about a mans greatness even though it's ridiculous to believe they were even thinking how their articles of him would be used to help judge him some 85 years later.

JAB, you must have read posts of mine to this twerp about the fact that SRR wasn't filmed just 7 times, but nearly 30 or so of his fights are on film....... He thinks that what's on YOUTUBE is THE ENTIRE COLLECTION OF EVERY FILMED FIGHT IN HISTORY....... I've seen every punch that Robinson and Basilio threw at each other over 30 rounds........ It's not on youtube, just like many others,..... but I have them sitting here on my cupboard,..... and the JERK tells me I haven't seen any of those old fights....... It's simply a waste of time trying to get through his brain matter, which is denser than the stuff a neutron star has in it's core............ According to him, all modern beats all old, period, full stop, end of argument (he say's).......... A W.B.F. champ with 15 fights could beat any old timer, a nobody today would beat Abe Attell in 10 seconds....... This is the world of Trojans-Le-Pew............................................... .............. Iv'e had enough of trying to explain anything to him....... But I appreciate your efforts anyway.

[Welsh Jon]

Well I'm glad you read my articles on Darcy. I'm just sorry you still rate him so low. He's better than Nino, and I am a bit of a Nino fan, I also rate him above Tiger without any qualms. Look mate It's like this,...... you either listen to such an expert as Jack Kearns, who rated Darcy as THE best MW ever (that was 1928 when he said it), Kearns and many others also had the same opinion, most of his opponents said he was the best fighter in the world, not everybody but just about everyone who saw him. Or you can choose to regard all those many, many claims as exaggerations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When Kearns said that, it was because he'd seen every top MW, Fitzsimmons, Ryan, Ketchel, Greb, Gibbons and Gibbons, Walker, Flowers......... and he rates Darcy as greater than all of them....... now I ask you, what would Kearns say to you if you told him that Benvenuti or Tiger would beat Ketchel or Greb ?????.... I bet I have an idea. The thing is mate you are overiding those who saw Darcy and those above,.... and you haven't, but you are still making the call that you may know more about it than them. Personally, I bow to those opinions, especially when they are not Australians (Kearns is American),............................. I am interested to know your reasons for what you said, you have a right to make a statement without reasons,.... but since you have, I would like to understand where you are coming from, so please tell me why,..... from such old film maybe,.... Benvenuti looks pretty good in colour, so Darcy is at a disadvantage, so is it because when you watch the film of him he looks somehow average in ability,.... mate if Dest the top

rcy is just average,...... then those old-timers must be all crude, clumsy...... I don't know, I don't know what more to say until you can give me some sound reasons why Darcy is not even in the top 300 ATG's (if he isn't top 50 on this list, then that's where he'd be on your list with the U.S. included,...... you do understand that the U.S.A. has provided 3 great fighters to 1, by the rest of the world combined).

The statements of yours I disagreed with is this Darcy was the 2nd best non-US middleweight and a top 10 non-US pound for pounder. I'm sure he easily makes a top 50 non-US list, I just can't see him as a top 10 fighter.

I am by no means saying he's average. The footage I've seen of him shows he was clearly an awesome fighter. I'm just saying he is, at best the 5th best middleweight from outside of America. That's no insult, there have been a lot of great middleweights.

I rate both Monzon and Fitzsimmons as being in the top 5 Middleweights of all time. Including US fighters. And Dick Tiger and Nino Bienvenuti fought superior competition than Darcy. Head to head I'm sure you can make a case for Darcy beating Tiger and Nino, but in terms of resume Darcy comes short compared to those guys. I mean, it's not even close, Tiger and Bienvenuti beat fellow hall of famers. I just don't see how I can rate a guy who beat the likes of Emile Griffith and Luis Manuel Rodriguez below a guy who beat the likes of Eddie McGoorty and Buck Crouse.