a prime Marciano VS a prime Liston, who'd win?

[Greatest1942]

Frazier had no dog in him either. How did that work out for him against George?

Just because George handled Frazier, a over weight one at that, does not mean Liston handles Marciano...
There is a difference.

Rocky and Frazier are different..its not like they are a carbon copy...
Both George and Frazier really were aggressive come forward guys...Liston on the other hand was a boxer puncher much like his idol Joe LOuis, who really liked to stay on the outside and liked to work behind his jab. He fired when the other guy opened up on him. Rocky was also more patient than Joe while coming forward...This clubbing of George with Sonny and Rocky with Joe is just done to under cut Rocky's chance IMO.

Neither is Big George = Sonny stylistically. Like it or not Liston wasn't the invicible beast he is made up today. The man was beaten by Marty Marshall. Who lasted a lot of rounds with him , before finally getting KO'd in the decider....Bert Whitehurst went the distance with him...It happened with everyone and it happened with Sonny too...It did not take running like MAchen to last with him..

Sonny also never ever carried his power late( I have no evidence he did), and always had stamina issue...If he did not put away Rocky early he will struggle..Its hard to imagine Rocky being blown away that early with Liston's style.

I say this because I think Liston will really try to box behind his jab, not open fire like George did...He never fought that way unless compelled too...Slowly he will hit Marciano and Rock will also slip some and land on him...if it becomes a war of attrition I will give this to Rock, simply because I cannot ever imagine the Rock quitting...even if he is aged 26 and against Clay...

He was a boxer puncher, but his jab could be slipped...You are right I am not convinced by your arguements

[Capaedia]

Marty Marshall told Liston a joke and then broke his jaw while he was laughing.

Let's just say they were extraordinary circumstances.

[StarshipTrooper]

Just because George handled Frazier, a over weight one at that, doe snot mean Liston handles Marciano...

Rocky and Frazier are different..its not like they are a carbon copy...

Neither is Big George and Sonny. Like it or not Liston wasn't the invicible beast he i smade up today. The man was beaten by Marty Marshall. Who lasted a lot of rounds with him , before finally getting KO'd in the decider....Bert Whitehurst went the distance with him.

He was a boxer puncher, but his jab could be slipped...You are right I am not convinced by your arguements

The point is that no swarmer was going to survive very long against Foreman, and the things that Foreman had that made him murder against swarmers Liston had as well. If anything, Foreman was a poor man's Liston. Liston could be beaten, but NOT by a swarmer.

Poet

[Greatest1942]

Marty Marshall told Liston a joke and then broke his jaw while he was laughing.

Let's just say they were extraordinary circumstances.

Well....Yes the jaw was broken, which as much as it pains me to say, there is no medical evidence yet...But I can only say he was beaten...And Marshall did last him with in later fights too...under no "special" circumstances...There is an "exceptional" circumstance in each defeat..like "Lewis was not focused for rahman", "Ali had his jaw broken" etc etc...I can look at the results and say that a 180 lb Marty Marshall ,who didnot run, stayed with Liston and fought with him...May be he is not the all consuming destroyer he is pictured to be.

@Poet:

Poor ones Liston...When did Sonny push around guys to set them in punching range as good as Foreman...Sonny was may be as strong, but he rarely pushed people around liek George did...I do think it was an advantage since Goerge was never a great infighter, neither was Sonny.Sonny liked to stand his ground and box from range when the occasion suited. He actually knew he could hurt guys from the outside with his jab. Both had great Uppercuts though.

I doubt Sonny ever had the foot speed of Foreman..Foreman was an expert in cutting the ring...One of Sonny's training partners said prior to Patterson fights "Liston is learning to cut off the ring"...Big difference right?


Sonny was never the go to hell I will get you out of here fighter that George was...The films do not support that...he was more of a boxer puncher...who liked to box behind his jab and wait for his openings...

And Yea....they had three thins in common :

1) They never ever carried their power late (in their primes, I know the old version of George did)

2) They both had severe stamina issues.

3) They both liked to intimidate opponents...and had monstrous stares.

But George and Sonny as fighters were different, similarities can be found always...but IMO Sonny did some things much better than George where as George did a lot of things much better than Sonny...not a poorer version by any means.

[Greatest1942]

I never thought Liston was as good a infighter as he is made up, from the videos I see...He could be occasionally brilliant but mostly he lacked the touch..out side he was great..Here's a section of an article for all you guys :-

"Trainer Charlie Brown told Whitehurst to slip the jab, to take a quick step inside and throw his own left hand. The result was a revelation. In the hollow of Liston's powerful arms, Whitehurst fought from what appeared to be a squat—with his body erect and his knees flexed, his head snug against Liston's chest. There he stayed, battering Liston's body. When Sonny tried to break away, Whitehurst tied him up.

"After three or four rounds of this," recalls Whitehurst, "Sonny's belly began to get the message, but he couldn't escape and he couldn't retaliate. He was furious." In the fifth round Whitehurst violated his instructions: he stepped back. Liston hurt him with a glancing left. Charging in, Liston followed with a right, but Whitehurst ducked the punch, came up and hit Liston with a left to the body and a right to the jaw. The flurry startled the rushing Sonny. Hurt, he covered up. Whitehurst had learned his lesson, but so had Liston, and Sonny thereafter refused to force the fight. For the next five rounds he warily tried to prevent Whitehurst from getting inside. He succeeded well enough with this new task to win a close decision."

What does Whitehurst do here that Rocky would npt/ could not do? Pardon me, he wasa far better slipper of jabs than Whitehurst for sure. And it Whitehurst is not fighting like a Machen or Ali either.Read on :-

"In our second fight [ St. Louis, Oct. 24, 1958] my manager, George Gainford, told me to stay outside," Whitehurst recalls. "For six rounds I took a good beating. The crowd yelled, 'Run, Whitehurst, run,' and I ran and I ran until I ran out of gas. Exhausted, I moved inside. It was like being in the eye of a hurricane. On the outside it was hell, but in close it was calm and I was safe.

"If I had listened to Charlie Brown," he continued, "I might have beaten Liston. Then I might have been...but that's an old story. Liston's an excellent fighter. A mean fighter. But if I could get another shot at him I'd quit teaching and give up studying, go into training and fight him winner-take-all. And, believe me, I wouldn't do all that unless I was convinced I could beat him.".................We move on from WhiteHurst

"Sonny likes to talk about training," he says, "but he's lazy. He doesn't like to do roadwork. And he does not like to be hit in the gut." --McCarter , Sonny's parring partner and one who gave Sonny a lot of trouble. (on a side note this is backed by Ben Skelton who was also a spar mate)

"The right hand was the one I waited for," says McCarter. " Liston throws the right with a lot of body behind it so that when he misses he is off balance. The momentum pitches him forward."

McCarter rolled away from the right and, as Liston lunged forward, he chopped back with his own right hand. In a money match this would have made Liston cautious, but in training it made him mad. Shoving and bullying were, always, Liston's final resort.(The difference between sparring and match is accounted here IMO)

McCarter's last session with Liston was on a day when a group of sportswriters was in camp. Anxious to show off, Sonny quickly used up his meager supply of sparring partners by knocking one out and breaking the rib of another.(Note:- If this is a disinterested sparring session.....) He was forced to use McCarter. For the better part of three rounds McCarter stayed on top of Liston, punching him in the belly. At times McCarter would step back, giving Liston punching space. Instead of getting killed, however, McCarter either slipped the jab or rolled with the punch and chopped back with a rapid combination.

In the face of such insubordination Liston began to maul and shove. McCarter mauled and shoved right back. Liston tried to throw McCarter out of the ring, but McCarter held on and both men flew into the ropes. (Note:- Skelton also mentions that Sonny could not shove McCarter around,seems to be teh case/(The sparring session came to an abrupt end—and so did McCarter's career as a Liston sparring mate. He had made the No. 1 heavyweight contender look bad by refusing to play straight man and passively accept his lumps. Instead, he exposed the flaw that Whitehurst had found: Liston's power can be neutralized by fighting in close.

Ali did box from the outside and beat Liston , which Machen a lesser boxer than Ali could not...I think Rock who was better than Bert Whitehurst could very well do what whitehurst could not...

I dont't by the bull... That no swarmer could beat Liston.

[Greatest1942]

Just other tidbits from Survivor of Liston - train.

Machen fought very unlike Rocky..but here's comething to ponder...

" Liston," continues Machen, "is not the smartest guy in the world. He moves like a train—one track all the time. When he finds a sitting duck like Patterson, or a Williams, he knocks them off the track. I think of my fight with him and I know I can beat him. He jabs, puts everything behind it—then he drops his left hand. No man can get away with that forever."

Well two or three suzie Q's and Liston might learn his lesson ala Joe Louis.

Well Liston had a broken jaw...What about marshall...read this

"Invariably, Marshall agreed to fights on short notice, taking off from work only the day of the fight and then reporting for work the morning after. Marshall accepted the second Liston match three days before the fight. For the third, he had six days' notice. "That's how Marty kept his budget going," says Al De Napoli, Marshall's manager. "I never wanted him to take those quick fights, but he insisted. Six days before the Harold Johnson-Liston match [ Pittsburgh, March 6, 1956], Johnson comes up with a shoulder injury. Liston is without an opponent, and the fight is off, unless they can come up with a substitute."

They offered me $750 to fill in," says Marshall, "but I said no. The minute they upped it to a thousand I went into training." When Marshall signed to meet Liston for the first fight, he knew nothing about Sonny except that here was a big, powerful heavyweight who outweighed him by 25 pounds. "Sonny didn't know nothing about scaring people then." says Marshall, "but he was trying. We got to the middle of the ring and Sonny grabs my hand and puts his other hand on my head, pulling my head down. He was smiling all the time, as if to say, 'Too bad, little boy, but I'm going to demolish you.' ".....

Moving on...

"It is a strong punch, all right," he recollected, "but it's so long that it is easy to slip. It was the right hand that I remember—if I didn't remember, my stomach would. He always keeps the right ****ed, so whenever I'd slip the jab I'd keep thinking, here comes the right, and I was prepared."

Some intersting notes again :-

The second fight, April 21, 1955 in St. Louis, agreed to by Marshall on three days' notice, followed much the same pattern but turned out differently. The referee stopped it in the sixth round when Marshall was knocked down for the fourth time. In the fifth round, however, Marshall slipped a Liston jab to the outside and crossed a right to Sonny's jaw, � la Max Schmeling when he knocked Louis down in 1936. The result was the same. Liston went down. Unlike Louis, he got up. Marshall foolishly tried for a knockout and was knocked down himself. The experience was not entirely useless. When Liston charged in for the knockout, Marshall threw up his left arm as a shield, crouching as he did to put his head into Liston's chest. The left arm knocked Liston's jab off course and blocked his right hand. It also had the appearance of a punch, and Liston pulled up his hands to defend.

"When we met in Pittsburgh for the third fight, I was able to score with a variation of this same trick," Marshall says. Then, as Liston got off his jab, Marshall jabbed. Expecting a counter, Liston pulled up the right and at the same time Marshall dropped down, stepped in and landed a solid right under Liston's heart....

So , taking a fight on three days notice was not a handicap...By the way Marshall was a blown up light heavy...He did last...we might conclude the Rock will too...once in the later rounds of a 15 rounder it will be tough for Sonny...

[Capaedia]

Well....Yes the jaw was broken, which as much as it pains me to say, there is no medical eveidence yet...

Are you denying his jaw was broken?

But I can only say he was beaten...And Marshall did last him with in later fights too...under no "special" circumstances...There is an "exceptional" circumstance in each defeat..like "Lewis was not focused for rahman", "Ali had his jaw broken" etc etc...I can look at the results and say that a 180 lb Marty Marshall ,who didnot run, stayed with Liston and fought with him...May be he is not the all consuming destroyer he is pictured to be.

See we're not saying he is the 'all consuming destroyer'. We're saying he's a horrendous match-up for Marciano.

He was actually a deceptively careful fighter who would often outfight his opponent on the outside, then finish them off on the inside (see Liston v Cleveland Williams). The reason he has so many knockouts is because of how murderous his punches were, not necessarily how aggressive he was although that did come into it.

1) They never ever carried their power late (in their primes, I know the old version of George did)

2) They both had severe stamina issues.

Neither of these are true.

Sonny had a tendency to settle into 'decision mode' if he felt he couldn't get a knockout, but he carried a lot of his power to the end.

If Liston was a more aggressive fighter, he would have more knockouts. Both wins and losses, it's as simple as that.

And where do you get this idea of Liston having severe stamina issues? I've never seen any evidence of that, not even late in his career.

[Greatest1942]

Are you denying his jaw was broken?


See we're not saying he is the 'all consuming destroyer'. We're saying he's a horrendous match-up for Marciano.

He was actually a deceptively careful fighter who would often outfight his opponent on the outside, then finish them off on the inside (see Liston v Cleveland Williams). The reason he has so many knockouts is because of how murderous his punches were, not necessarily how aggressive he was although that did come into it.



Neither of these are true.

Sonny had a tendency to settle into 'decision mode' if he felt he couldn't get a knockout, but he carried a lot of his power to the end.

If Liston was a more aggressive fighter, he would have more knockouts. Both wins and losses, it's as simple as that.

And where do you get this idea of Liston having severe stamina issues? I've never seen any evidence of that, not even late in his career.

"Are you denying his jaw was broken?"

Just saying there was and still is no medical proof...take it as you wish.

"He was actually ..."

I said those things to illustrate that , Sonny was never like George who liked to blow his opponents away early, invariably...He was more of a boxer puncher...who liked to stay outside...If you read my post you might find a line like "Sonny liked to stand his ground and box from range when the occasion suited. He actually knew he could hurt guys from the outside with his jab. Both had great Uppercuts though."...Are you saying anything different by the way?

"Neither of these are true."

In my book to show you have late power you have to have late round KO's...not guesses what he did and how he did...may be its different in your book...do you think George carried his power late by the by?

And again what are you saying about "Sonny had a tendency" , didnt I say this ? I said George was more agreesive than Liston and may be you skipped this :- "Sonny was never the go to hell I will get you out of here fighter that George was...The films do not support that...he was more of a boxer puncher...who liked to box behind his jab and wait for his openings..."
This part was not for you anyways , it was for Poet and my view that George and Sonny were different..read it again please.

I have seen plently of evidence Liston having stamina issues late in his career...as evidenced by his KO against Martin where he was gassed for that last rounds...and visibly tired...

You can watch his fight against Whitehurst, and see , how Sonny's work rate diminishe sin the later round ( and it is a10 rounder)...Liston's huffing and puffing as the rounds progressed against Henry Clark were there for all to see.

How many 15 rounds did Liston fight that made you assume he does not have issues...

[rorymac]

Yeah, Jones belongs there I just don't think of him as being from the past 10 years (then again Evander isn't either).....I blame it on trying to forget Jones' post 2000 body of work lol.

I haven't done a p4p list in quite a while as I don't put as much stock in it as others do.....I prefer to rank ATGs within weight classes. I'd have Robinson at the top though.

Poet

Good stuff. Yep Jones is 90s when you consider. Yeah P4P lists are subjective and near-impossible anyway. I haven't watched enough fighters to be able to make one.

[Greatest1942]

Are you denying his jaw was broken?


See we're not saying he is the 'all consuming destroyer'. We're saying he's a horrendous match-up for Marciano.

He was actually a deceptively careful fighter who would often outfight his opponent on the outside, then finish them off on the inside (see Liston v Cleveland Williams). The reason he has so many knockouts is because of how murderous his punches were, not necessarily how aggressive he was although that did come into it.



Neither of these are true.

Sonny had a tendency to settle into 'decision mode' if he felt he couldn't get a knockout, but he carried a lot of his power to the end.
If Liston was a more aggressive fighter, he would have more knockouts. Both wins and losses, it's as simple as that.

And where do you get this idea of Liston having severe stamina issues? I've never seen any evidence of that, not even late in his career.

A lot had to do with the fact that he may be was unable to follow up on his leads the same way he was in the later rounds...Why will a murderous puncher settle down to decision mode when he knows he can bring the KO any time...

he finished Williams on the inside? I think when he did finish him on the inside Williams was actually in lala land after that savage assault from teh outside.