a prime Marciano VS a prime Liston, who'd win?

[joseph5620]

I have often stated Floyd's strategy against Liston was wrong , which actually made Liston's job easy.

Here is a heading of an article "In Stockholm, Floyd Patterson humbled Texan Tod Herring with the hit-and-run style he now admits he should have used against Liston".

Patterson could have fought Liston with a motorcycle and a 38 pistol. He still was going to lose badly. Why do you think his manager/trainer didn't want the fight?

[SBleeder]

I have often stated Floyd's strategy against Liston was wrong , which actually made Liston's job easy.

Here is a heading of an article "In Stockholm, Floyd Patterson humbled Texan Tod Herring with the hit-and-run style he now admits he should have used against Liston".

Patterson's strategic error was leaving the locker room. His chin would have maybe lasted 3 rounds if he had backpedaled away from Liston instead of rushing him.

[joseph5620]

Well....Yes the jaw was broken, which as much as it pains me to say, there is no medical evidence yet...But I can only say he was beaten...And Marshall did last him with in later fights too...under no "special" circumstances...There is an "exceptional" circumstance in each defeat..like "Lewis was not focused for rahman", "Ali had his jaw broken" etc etc...I can look at the results and say that a 180 lb Marty Marshall ,who didnot run, stayed with Liston and fought with him...May be he is not the all consuming destroyer he is pictured to be.

@Poet:

Poor ones Liston...When did Sonny push around guys to set them in punching range as good as Foreman...Sonny was may be as strong, but he rarely pushed people around liek George did...I do think it was an advantage since Goerge was never a great infighter, neither was Sonny.Sonny liked to stand his ground and box from range when the occasion suited. He actually knew he could hurt guys from the outside with his jab. Both had great Uppercuts though.

I doubt Sonny ever had the foot speed of Foreman..Foreman was an expert in cutting the ring...One of Sonny's training partners said prior to Patterson fights "Liston is learning to cut off the ring"...Big difference right?


Sonny was never the go to hell I will get you out of here fighter that George was...The films do not support that...he was more of a boxer puncher...who liked to box behind his jab and wait for his openings...

And Yea....they had three thins in common :

1) They never ever carried their power late (in their primes, I know the old version of George did)

2) They both had severe stamina issues.

3) They both liked to intimidate opponents...and had monstrous stares.

But George and Sonny as fighters were different, similarities can be found always...but IMO Sonny did some things much better than George where as George did a lot of things much better than Sonny...not a poorer version by any means.

It's interesting how you use Sonny Liston's 8th pro fight as an example. He wasn't even near his prime at that point. And Liston stopped Martin in 6 rounds in the rematch. That's not going the distance. The third was a one sided decision loss for Martin. All three fights were early in Liston's career. The peak of his career you completely ignored which to me means you don't have much to support your argument.


Also, when did Liston show he had "severe" stamina issues? Especially since he won all of his distance fights except for a split decision early in his career.

[Greatest1942]

It's interesting how you use Sonny Liston's 8th pro fight as an example. He wasn't even near his prime at that point. And Liston stopped Martin in 6 rounds in the rematch. That's not going the distance. The third was a one sided decision loss for Martin. All three fights were early in Liston's career. The peak of his career you completely ignored which to me means you don't have much to support your argument.


Also, when did Liston show he had "severe" stamina issues? Especially since he won all of his distance fights except for a split decision early in his career.

Who says Floyd would have won vs Liston? He did not have the chin...just because you know you cannot win does not win you go in with the wrong strategy and fight your opponents fight...Or you think that is Okay?

As for the above quote in bold , Yea..I use that...Marshall also took the fight on a short notice...And its not like Marshall was a ATG light heavy.

Would you cut any slack for Ali if he lost in his 8th fight? Why cut that for Liston...I would not do that if he was simply a good contender...but is rated in top 10(including me)...

Besides although Liston KO'd Marshall in the 2nd fight, Marshall dropped him in the 5th round too...nothing much..anybody can be dropped...In the third (Liston's 14th), Marshall again took Liston the distance (10 rounds)...After the fight Liston once more showed up in Marshall's dressing room. "You know," he said, "you almost had me in the seventh round." I did not post all these to demean Liston just to show other guys you can last with Liston even if you don't always run away from..

Again I repeat if Mike Tyson lost to a light heavy at his 8th fight or Ali or Louis or Dempsey or Rocky or Frazier would you cut them any slack...
The point is not that Marshall beat him , it is that he twice went the distance with him..

Read on
""I'd like to fight him again," says Marshall. "Sure, he's improved, but he doesn't punch any harder and he still throws the same punches. The big difference in Sonny Liston now is in his confidence. Now he's like a general in the ring. He gives the orders—but his opponents can have something to do with this. I know if he was in there with me he'd be more respectful. I'd tap him on the chin and remind him of that broken jaw."

"The peak of his career you completely ignored which to me means you don't have much to support your argument."

Well I ignored the last part, after Clay...the rest I did not rest assured...

And I did not use Marshall only...I used a sparring partner, WhiteHurst and Marshall...I made some other posts too you know..read them then come back to me...by the by just to let you know, before you go and read all the posts of mine, understand one thing , I do not say Liston will win or Rocky...all I tried to prove is that Rocky could stay with Liston and this myth that any one who came into Liston was dead, well a myth....I used Machen simply to point a flaw he noticed in Sonny whoch Rocky could expose too.

"severe stamina"

Severe is a word may be wrongly associated with Liston's stamina. Rightly with George..You are right...he did not have great Stamina by any means though...

"Especially since he won all of his distance fights except for a split decision early in his career."

Well against Whitehurst, MAchen he did...but tell me did you see Liston having a good workrate in the later rounds...And his distance fights were for max 12 rounds (against Machen) and mostly 10 rounds...he never fought a 15 rounder( I mean ever heard the bell for round 15).

Most of his sparring mates tell Liston's laziness and his hate for running and roadwork contrary to perception...And I did see him gassing against Clay badly...if he did not come in shape against Clay, I wont cut any slack...It is the business of a boxer to come in shape ( I dont cut any slack for Lewis too). And no he was not 40 please...If you just read from page 5 or 6 onwards you will see why I say this too..

Joseph, again I just believe that you can beat Liston without running like Clay...many survived him in a very different way...And I think the Rock who was much better than WhiteHurst, Marshall et all could do it too.

For your refernce mate the post I alluded too is post nos 52 and 53...You may disagree and I am fine with that...But in my mind Rocky has a chance against Liston and he has a very good chance.

[I am tyler]

I think Liston would beat him tbh.

[joseph5620]

Who says Floyd would have won vs Liston? He did not have the chin...just because you know you cannot win does not win you go in with the wrong strategy and fight your opponents fight...Or you think that is Okay?
As for the above quote in bold , Yea..I use that...Marshall also took the fight on a short notice...And its not like Marshall was a ATG light heavy.

Would you cut any slack for Ali if he lost in his 8th fight? Why cut that for Liston...I would not do that if he was simply a good contender...but is rated in top 10(including me)...

Besides although Liston KO'd Marshall in the 2nd fight, Marshall dropped him in the 5th round too...nothing much..anybody can be dropped...In the third (Liston's 14th), Marshall again took Liston the distance (10 rounds)...After the fight Liston once more showed up in Marshall's dressing room. "You know," he said, "you almost had me in the seventh round." I did not post all these to demean Liston just to show other guys you can last with Liston even if you don't always run away from..

And I did not use Marshall only...I used a sparring partner, WhiteHurst and Marshall...

"severe stamina"

Severe is a word may be wrongly associated with Liston's stamina. ..You are right...he did not have great Stamina by any means though...

"Especially since he won all of his distance fights except for a split decision early in his career."

Well against Whitehurst, MAchen he did...but tell me did you see Liston having a good workrate in the later rounds...And his distance fights were for max 12 rounds (against Machen) and mostly 10 rounds...he never won a 15 rounder.

Most of his sparring mates tell Liston's laziness and his hate for running and roadwork contrary to perception...And I did see him gassing against Clay badly...if he did not come in shape against Clay, I wont cut any slack...It is the business of a boxer to come in shape ( I dont cut any slack for Lewis too). And no he was not 40...please.

How can you say it was the "wrong strategy" when you have no evidence fighting differently would have been any better for Patterson? Obviously you were implying that Patterson would have done better with a different strategy or you never would have brought it up.


And yeah I would cut slack for Ali if he went on the same winning streak as well as avenging that loss. Why wouldn't I? And Liston cleaned out the top 10 and was blatantly ducked by Patterson.That's not "merely a top ten contender"/.


And you're using a sparring session as an example? Come on. Ali was dropped twice by Jimmy Ellis in sparring. Yet Ali gave Ellis a one sided beating in their official fight. Without Angelo Dundee in his corner (Dundee stuck with Ellis for that one).


And Liston "gassed" against Clay because of Clay. Not because it was a recurring problem. And I don't believe Liston was 40 in that fight either.

[Greatest1942]

How can you say it was the "wrong strategy" when you have no evidence fighting differently would have been any better for Patterson? Obviously you were implying that Patterson would have done better with a different strategy or you never would have brought it up.


And yeah I would cut slack for Ali if he went on the same winning streak as well as avenging that loss. Why wouldn't I? And Liston cleaned out the top 10 and was blatantly ducked by Patterson.That's not "merely a top ten contender"/.


And you're using a sparring session as an example? Come on. Ali was dropped twice by Jimmy Ellis in sparring. Yet Ali gave Ellis a one sided beating in their official fight. Without Angelo Dundee in his corner (Dundee stuck with Ellis for that one).


And Liston "gassed" against Clay because of Clay. Not because it was a recurring problem. And I don't believe Liston was 40 in that fight either.

"How can you say it was the "wrong strategy" when you have no evidence fighting differently would have been any better for Patterson? Obviously y"

In a previous post in a rebuttal to a poster I had written that Patterson fought the wrong fight...Against Liston...I just posted that to support what Patterson himself thought...a common sparring mate of Sonny and Patterson thought so too...And I can darn sure say that Sonny would KO out Patterson sure but against a good mover with good chin he will have trouble...

It doesnt matter what I think floyd thought he would have done better if he fought that way, which proves my point that he fought a bad fight (wrong strategy)...now with any strategy he will struggle with his chin...Besides the boxing world including Johannsson thought Floyd will do better with the hit and run strategy...Even Machen later commented that Floyd fought a bad fight...>if Floyd admits he fought a bad fight and should have fought other wise...you will Say no you fought right? How dare you say so now......Come on man..

The perception remains even with Liston backers till now that he always would have trouble with movers.


"And yeah I would cut slack for Ali if he went on the same winning streak a"

Listen again, I do not say Liston was a mere top 10 contender, the fact he is rated in the top 10 all time great heavies of all time (by me also), makes him entitled to the slack...man every loss counts...Great fighters are not beaten easily in their primes...neither was Sonny whats new?
Besides are you completely unbiased? You are calling me on for listing Marshall yet you don't see that Marshall who was outweighed by over 25 pounds took the fight in less than a weeks notice...wasnt that a handicap....But comeon We have to defend Liston
"And you're using a sparring session as an example? Come on. Ali was dropped twice by Jimmy Ellis in sparring. Yet Ali gave Ellis a one sided beating in their official fight. Without Angelo Dundee in his corner (Dundee stuck with Ellis for that one)."


I can answer this...here but read post #52 and #53 before arguing...do you even know what I wrote and what I used there? Read those two posts then debate...Besides teh sparring session forms a meagre part of my arguement...not the whole arguement

So anyone who fights Clay is entitled to Gas in the 6th round...Why my then why did not Doug Jones or Chuvalo (who gave Ali much better fights than the great Liston) or Mildenbergner gas...Simple they had better stamina..Liston had little in his tank in the clay fight... well my...he gassed against Clark, I wont go till Martin (he was ancient )..
Against Machen Sonny looked wild and tired in the 11th round...did finish well in the 12 th though...Why its so hard to admit that Liston gased becaus eof his stamina , he never had to chase a guy like Clay, who did not fight his fight and when he had to ..he found himself short

[Greatest1942]

How can you say it was the "wrong strategy" when you have no evidence fighting differently would have been any better for Patterson? Obviously you were implying that Patterson would have done better with a different strategy or you never would have brought it up.


And yeah I would cut slack for Ali if he went on the same winning streak as well as avenging that loss. Why wouldn't I? And Liston cleaned out the top 10 and was blatantly ducked by Patterson.That's not "merely a top ten contender"/.


And you're using a sparring session as an example? Come on. Ali was dropped twice by Jimmy Ellis in sparring. Yet Ali gave Ellis a one sided beating in their official fight. Without Angelo Dundee in his corner (Dundee stuck with Ellis for that one).


And Liston "gassed" against Clay because of Clay. Not because it was a recurring problem. And I don't believe Liston was 40 in that fight either.

Here's a part of teh particle have a go at Patterson now please...how dare he thinks he can beat Liston if he had hit and run..I swear I only told what he said...

"Patterson's boom, boom, boom was blurred into a b-b-boommm as he fought the type of fight, he belatedly concedes, he should have fought against Liston. He kept away from danger and darted in and out, using his agility to reduce Herring's advantages in size.

Only in the second round did Herring score. Landing several good body punches, he seemed for a moment to become dangerous. But Patterson had no intention of letting this develop. In the next and final round, which lasted only 40 seconds, he finished the contest with seven fine punches. The first two were short, extremely fast left hooks that sent Herring back on his heels. The two men then clinched for a moment before the fight moved out into the open again, and Patterson hit Herring with the final five punches: a right, a left, a right, a left and a right. The blows sent the Texan staggering, though they did not knock him off his feet.

At this point British Referee Teddy Waltham stopped the fight. "If Herring had taken another punch," he said, "he might have been killed." Although, in the fashion of boxers, Herring said later that he thought the fight was stopped too soon, he also admitted in his honest, likable fashion that his legs were wobbling and his head was "muzzed up."

"Why," asked a Swede in the audience, "didn't Floyd fight Liston that way?" Drinking tea in the dressing room and frequently blowing his nose because of a cold that had come on that day, Patterson offered his own explanation. "All the time," he said, "the whole world is learning different things. First the Wright brothers flew; now we have jets. I did not know yesterday what I know today, but if I had to fight Liston all over again I would fight a completely different style. My pride this time would not compel me to fight as I did before."

[Greatest1942]

How can you say it was the "wrong strategy" when you have no evidence fighting differently would have been any better for Patterson? Obviously you were implying that Patterson would have done better with a different strategy or you never would have brought it up.


And yeah I would cut slack for Ali if he went on the same winning streak as well as avenging that loss. Why wouldn't I? And Liston cleaned out the top 10 and was blatantly ducked by Patterson.That's not "merely a top ten contender"/.


And you're using a sparring session as an example? Come on. Ali was dropped twice by Jimmy Ellis in sparring. Yet Ali gave Ellis a one sided beating in their official fight. Without Angelo Dundee in his corner (Dundee stuck with Ellis for that one).


And Liston "gassed" against Clay because of Clay. Not because it was a recurring problem. And I don't believe Liston was 40 in that fight either.

And read this man :-

"Shortly after I started working with Sonny Liston last June I nicknamed him The Bear. It became sort of a grim, hurtful joke to us sparring partners. He's mean in the ring; he can mess up your guts with one swipe. When I moved over to the champ's camp I discovered Floyd had been aptly nicknamed The Lion. Patterson moves easily and throws punches with catlike quickness. Yet it would be better for Floyd to imitate a cobra or a mongoose, moving in fast, loosing his combinations and getting out before Sonny has a chance to unload.

I have to laugh at the reports of Sonny's love for roadwork. Only thing I know is that I usually led all the way and when I finished up I hadn't worked up a sweat. That "three-mile" trot along the railroad bed was closer to 1� miles, and that "five-mile" run around that bitty nine-hole golf course couldn't have been more than two miles. Patterson, on the other hand, is a demon for running, and how that boy can run! This is another reason for Floyd to stay out of reach, make Liston chase him. If he does this, then around about the seventh round Sonny is going to run out of leg. In close, Patterson should pump straight lefts and rights to the body, because this, along with all the chasing, will sap Liston's strength and Sonny will unwind like an old clock spring."...Ben Skelton

Read the one in bold...now cough cough...Patterson we all know did not do this...but Clay did it..we all know what happened in the 7th round...man sometimes actually Sparring mates know some truth which common guys cannot/ do not have the scope to know....Ofcourse you might not agree

Now read further :-

"Sonny's like a stubborn kid. He just won't believe that anything or anybody can hurt him. And he fights the same way. He just keeps stalking, willing to take good shots in order to put over his left. But if the champ don't cooperate, then Sonny's in trouble. He has to fight his fight. It upsets him when he's unable to move the other guy around. It got so he wouldn't spar with Jim McCarter, who was too strong to shove and maul about"
McCarter...man did Sonny like him...Listen from the man...

"It was funny," McCarter says wryly. " Liston just didn't remember fighting me in the AAU tournament. He didn't remember losing, either. Even though it was in the record books. But from the moment I arrived in camp up in South Fallsburg, [N.Y.] last spring, I seemed to be the butt of all of Sonny's jokes. If someone had a question, Sonny would say, 'Ask college boy, he knows all the answers." After we began to spar, he liked me even less.

"One day after we had worked out. Sonny woke me up by cocking a gun at my head and firing a blank. I guess I annoyed him. He was murdering all the sparring partners in camp except me. This he didn't like. I wasn't about to be raw meat for his bloody appetite. I protected myself. I fought like I did in the amateurs, only I was better. Willie Reddish [Sonny's trainer] had been working with me, and Liston resented this. Willie was forced to stop, but by then I had learned more than I had in my entire career."..He does say something similar to Ben...they both testify

1) Sonny never trained much (Stamina)
2) Sonny had trouble with McCarter...

Now I don't say McCarter beats Sonny...I say that there was enough bad blood between them to make Sonny take him a bit more seriously than sparring...

Again to everyone my point is to prove that Sonny could be fought in the inside, which can be done...was done in an actual fight and in sparring with a guy Sonny did not like..

Besides I used fights too man...and will post below about another fight too...Just to prove that Liston could be fought in the inside and many did so.

[Greatest1942]

Just to back up what I said about Johansson:-

There was the official decision in favor of a seemingly bewildered Liston, and then Willi Besmanoff, a consistent loser, came on the screen. This was almost a year before the Machen fight and, as Ingemar pointed out, Liston had been slimmer then, which might account for the fact that he also looked faster against Besmanoff, whom he stopped in the seventh round. Ingemar observed that Liston looked strong when Besmanoff closed with him but that neither appeared to know anything about infighting.

"Besmanoff just goes in and does nothing," he said. "But Besmanoff looks better than when he was fighting Archie Moore [who twice defeated him in 10 rounds]. Right away I can see that."
He gasped as Liston let a perfect knockout opportunity slip by and was himself exposed in the process.

"Oh, Marciano would have kayoed him very fast!" he said, thinking, no doubt, that Ingemar Johansson might have done the same with such an opportunity. He admired Liston's jab once more but pointed out that it was too slow, for all its ponderous power, and this meant that a faster fighter would slip it. Liston was missing with his hook, too, Ingemar noted. The never-brilliant Besmanoff was, in fact, slipping the jab and blocking the hook or, at times, moving inside the hook and catching only the force of Liston's forearm.

" Liston is very easy to hit with a straight left himself," Johansson went on, watching Besmanoff do it. He remarked that he had been told that no one ever has subjected Liston to a body attack—a fact of some significance, since Patterson's body attack is painfully powerful. He has often used it to weaken opponents for the knockout.

"I understand Patterson is counting on that," Ingemar said. "Some friends tell me."

After the knockout, which had been increasingly predictable, we adjourned to the bar where, over a Coca-Cola, Ingemar pondered what he had seen.

"I tell you," he said finally, "that after I see these films I think more of Patterson's chances."

...........

"I wish with all my heart that Patterson would win," he said. "Boxing is not a sport for ladies, but you have to keep a standard and it would hurt boxing if Liston is champion. I would like to fight Liston and if he wins I would get a chance at the title again, but I am sure Patterson would not fight me again. So if Liston wins, it is good for me. But I would not want to see him win."

Still mulling over the probabilities after what he had seen, drawing on his deep knowledge of Patterson's abilities and weaknesses, he suggested that Patterson should not attack with his left hook because in doing so he would run the risk of Liston's long-armed jab.

"Neither should he stand and look," Ingemar continued. "If I may give him advice, I would say that he should start all the time with the left jab—left jab. He should do this for a couple of rounds and Liston will tire very fast because he is used to always coming in. That is what made him look good and made the others tired very soon. But if someone does it to him then he is the one who will be tired."

.....................
My motivation in posting this and highlighting teh part again was to illustrate that Liston could be fought except running and since very ordinary heavies and "consistent losers" did so, I find no reason why an ATG like Rocky could not do it.....

I will again say Machen proved that Liston could be survived and may be outpointed but did not finish the job, Clay/Ali did...

May be this ***** too needs a bonafide great like MArciano too expose...Liston was too good for mere contenders and oprdinary heavies any day.

By the by before any one calls me out read posts #52 and #53 and answer please....