Liston vs Vitali Klitschko

[joseph5620]

Vitali is not difficult to hit. Lennox (the one Vitali opponent who actually knew how to fight) hit him at will. Target practice. Liston having the longer reach AND the better jab has no need to "charge inside". He can drill Vitali from the outside all night long and there isn't a damn thing Vitali can do about it. He's simply NOT going to outjab Liston.

You're putting way too much value in size here. If being tall and heavy were all that and a bag of chips then Primo Carnera would be the GOAT.

Poet

I agree. I don't understand this perception that Vitali is some invincible force that goes through every fighter in history when he couldn't even walk through Chris Byrd(who is naturally smaller than Liston).The best fighters he's ever faced were past prime Lennox Lewis, Chris Byrd, and Corrie Sanders. He lost 2 of those fights and had problems in each one. Yeah he was ahead on the scorecards aginst Byrd, but it doesn't change the fact that he was having difficulty with Byrd. If it was so easy he would have finished it. Sanders is no Liston by a long shot. If he could hit and hurt Vitali, so could Liston. With that said, I don't see Vitali beating Liston.

[MajorKong]

But that's not what happened with Liston because...?

Sonny Liston > you, wackaloon

Because he became An Hero?



Liston quit once, he took a dive once and he tried to cheat. That tells me he was weak of mind. If his bully tactics (see Tyson's whole career) (Judah hitting Baldomir on the belt during ref's instructions) didn't work, he resorted to thuggery because he was a small man.

Not in the pants mind you. The book I read on him mentioned he had at least a 10 inch ****.

But I digress.

[BigStereotype]

Check the reach. I think you'll find Brown had a significant REACH advantage (76" for a Featherweight) over most of his opponents and THAT was the key factor in his success. Height is basically irrelevant as the difference in height is the same for both fighters. It's the reach that counts and even then a reach advantage can be gotten around by an opponent who knows what he's doing. The problem with Vitali's opponents is that they have absolutely no clue how to fight someone with a longer reach.

Poet

Maybe that's so. But when I watch the Klitschkos fight (and it's poor evidence because of the sorry state of their comp, I'll admit), it seems like they know exactly where to put their hands to shield their faces from a punch coming up. And I know for a fact that punching down is no problem. I'm real tall and every time I've ever been in a fight, I've had to throw downward. If anything, I feel like I hit harder like that. The angle for punching down is a lot easier than the angle for punching up.

It's an interesting question, but I really do think that height is a factor. By itself, not much, but if you know how to use it, it can be big. George Foreman always used to talk about it. Your body type can be an advantage, no matter what, as long as you know how to effectively utilize it.

[StarshipTrooper]

“How I feel about the win? My thought is you don’t quit the fight. I don’t care what happens. If you’re a champion, you know you’re winning, why would you quit? You just don’t do that. I’ve been injured in many fights that people don’t even know about. I’m a very small guy. I mean, I’ve suffered major injuries in the ring while I boxed, and one of them being I got my nose broke, pushed all the way over in the first round. I didn’t quit. I didn’t tell anybody. I just sat in the corner and was like, ‘Oh my goodness’, because if the doctor would have checked me they would have stopped the fight. I didn’t want to lose. So with the heart of a champion, you keep fighting. With German reports of the fight, as opposed to HBO, in Germany they had either way 5-4 for either person going into the tenth round. So I don’t know if he was hearing German reports and the fight was close, but you don’t cop out. You may have a shoulder injury but you keep fighting. It’s part of the sport, it’s a hurt sport, so looking at that I would have kept fighting. That’s why I was so happy after the fact that it didn’t seem like he was truly hurt, but in the fight I threw really good body shots and early on he wasn’t grunting at all when I hit him to the body and then in the fifth or sixth round he started to, and I’m like, ‘Oh, I’m getting to him, more and more, and people don’t see this’. I’m like wow. That’s why I kept cutting the distance if you noticed in the fight and he ended up quitting. It was a cheerful moment for me because I took this fight on eight days notice and I hate to say it, but I had major diarrhea going into the fight because I wasn’t adjusted to the food and I was drinking juice over there that was 100% so it goes right through you and when I got in the ring I probably weighed 199 pounds and I’m fighting a guy who weighed around 250. I was just extra excited and overwhelmed with emotion because that was a giant killer everybody said, that I’m hearing, that nobody could beat. He was 27-0 with 27 knockouts, I’m like, ‘Man, I guess I am pretty good’. Especially coming off of the Ike Ibeabuchi loss which still haunted me, and I’m in the mix now, where I wanted to be.”---you know who...

Liston quit against Ali...what did he think Of Sonny Liston:-

“He the devil.
Not enough fire in hell for him.”

See the difference...One great calls Liston fearsome, and a top -200 (LOL POET) calls Vitaly a quitter

Well Byrd IS an obese Middleweight who ate his into the Heavies.....and I don't think I'd have TOO difficult a time coming up with more than a hundred Heavies that were better than him :chuckle9:

There's also a pretty obvious difference between an old man saying "**** this I'm too old for this ****" and a young in-prime fighter doing it.

Poet

[joseph5620]

Because he became An Hero?



Liston quit once, he took a dive once and he tried to cheat. That tells me he was weak of mind. If his bully tactics (see Tyson's whole career) (Judah hitting Baldomir on the belt during ref's instructions) didn't work, he resorted to thuggery because he was a small man.

Not in the pants mind you. The book I read on him mentioned he had at least a 10 inch ****.

But I digress.

I'm sure that was your favorite part of the book for your imagination. Forget the boxing.

[Vadrigar.]

I didn't realize Liston and Lewis were the same person.

My bad.

No one said that!

This is a fantasy matchup, genius.

[StarshipTrooper]

Vitali quit once. That tells me he was weak of mind.

Is that what you're trying to say? :thinking9:

[BigStereotype]

Is that what you're trying to say? :thinking9:

[RubenSonny]

Lewis had EXACTLY the wrong combination of reach, equal height and a tremendous straight right to hit Vitali. It's like how Zab Judah was able to rake Mayweather with his straight left early. Some guys just have your number. Not saying that Vitali is as good as Mayweather, but do you see what I'm saying.

Your chalking up the problems Vitali had against by far the best opponent he faced to that...smh. Judah didn't have Mayweathers number at all he was just a fast southpaw and was figured out in a few rounds and left with no answers. Vitali came started well against the heaviest and oldest Lewis anyone faced but got hit at will and ended up getting stopped. Not an apt comparison at all.

[Greatest1942]

Yeah, it was thrown properly but he telegraphed it because he was so slow. That's what I meant by clumsy.

And yeah, tbh, I don't think Shane Mosley has heart, at least not for a few years now. Did he have heart when he was 25? Seemed like it. But heart doesn't stay with you forever in boxing i.e "my heart's not in it anymoar" ...

He flat out bitched out in his last few fights and admitted it too.

Viatly quit too...so he is a quitter too.

Quitter vs Quitter no probs here?

BigStereotype, Liston was much smarter than what he generally is given credit for...

Its a wrong impression you have of the man. He underestimated Clay/Ali...but when he set his heart to it he was good.

Against a prime Williams after being pounded in the 1st round, he was good enough to realize Williams could not keep it up for long...And he will get his chance.

And I don't know how stupid you think he is? Do you think he would failed to realize that he had a better jab than Vitaly, I doubt so...Anyways Liston was always a jab , jab , jab, keep them offbalanced then bang kind of fighter, I dont see how he will basically change against Vitaly.

"See, the different parts of the brain set in little cups like this. When you get hit a terrible shot—pop!—the brain flops out of them cups and you're knocked out. Then the brain settles back in the cups and you come to. But after this happens enough times, or sometimes even once if the shot's hard enough, the brain don't settle back right in them cups, and that's when you start needing other people to help you get around."-- very unintelligent ???