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"20 billion contest" The Compubox Era

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  • "20 billion contest" The Compubox Era

    This has been on my blog for some time, but it seems like a legitimate entry here:

    Thanks to computers and media advances, sports like baseball and football have been enhanced with more detailed statistics over the past decade. These stats are usually both informative and interesting. Boxing's answer to this is CompuBox, which has been with us for about 20 years now. HBO and ESPN pay a good amount of money for this service. But do these numbers really enlighten us the way other sports statistics do? I have serious doubts about it.


    Boxing is the only sport where the outcome can be in doubt when it is over. All other sports can be determined by a glance at the scoreboard. It is as simple as seeing who has more points or runs. The only other exception besides boxing would be horse racing, which is settled by a panel that studies a photo finish if the race is close or video footage if there is a claim of foul. But boxing is a totally subjective sport. Fights that go the distance are decided by humans who may use any number of criterias or agendas. No technology will ever prove who really won the Leonard-Hagler fight. It will forever remain a controversy.

    What CompuBox offers is a breakdown of punches thrown and landed. It breaks down how many of the punches are jabs or power punches. It discriminates body punches from head shots. While these stats are generally interesting, they can't be taken as the last word in any case. First of all, they are counted by humans, not measured by stopwatches. Anything gathered by humans is obviously vulnerable to human error. When you are tabulating anything that goes over 1,000, you are likely to get a different count after examining a replay. The CompuBox people have no second chance to examine their tabulations. At the rate punches are thrown in a boxing match you have to be constantly alert to count the next punches rather than re-examine the previous ones.


    Of course the ringside judges don't have the stats at their disposal, so it can't taint any official decision. But what is disturbing to me is the television announcer's dependence on them. Jim Lampley, who does a terrific job of anchoring an announcing crew, is maybe the worst abuser of this. At the beginning of every round he recites the previous rounds numbers as if they were gospel. It seems to effect his analysis of the fight, which may be why so many people watching the fight on TV thought Oscar De La Hoya beat Shane Mosley in the rematch, while the press covering it live generally observed Shane landing the much harder punches. ESPN's Joe Tessitore dutifully gives out the punch stats before going back to his comfortable mode of setting up Teddy Atlas with questions the entire round.


    My point is that boxing matches are best scored by watching rather than tabulating. Years ago I stopped scoring fights because I found it deterred from my enjoyment of them. I believe that HBO would be better serving their viewers by evaluating what they are seeing rather than trying to measure it. Having their own judge, Harold Lederman, is quite adequate for keeping the viewers with a perspective of how the scoring is progressing. I just don't have blind faith in other humans frantically counting and evaluating punches without the benefit of review.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Scott9945 View Post
    This has been on my blog for some time, but it seems like a legitimate entry here:

    Thanks to computers and media advances, sports like baseball and football have been enhanced with more detailed statistics over the past decade. These stats are usually both informative and interesting. Boxing's answer to this is CompuBox, which has been with us for about 20 years now. HBO and ESPN pay a good amount of money for this service. But do these numbers really enlighten us the way other sports statistics do? I have serious doubts about it.


    Boxing is the only sport where the outcome can be in doubt when it is over. All other sports can be determined by a glance at the scoreboard. It is as simple as seeing who has more points or runs. The only other exception besides boxing would be horse racing, which is settled by a panel that studies a photo finish if the race is close or video footage if there is a claim of foul. But boxing is a totally subjective sport. Fights that go the distance are decided by humans who may use any number of criterias or agendas. No technology will ever prove who really won the Leonard-Hagler fight. It will forever remain a controversy.

    What CompuBox offers is a breakdown of punches thrown and landed. It breaks down how many of the punches are jabs or power punches. It discriminates body punches from head shots. While these stats are generally interesting, they can't be taken as the last word in any case. First of all, they are counted by humans, not measured by stopwatches. Anything gathered by humans is obviously vulnerable to human error. When you are tabulating anything that goes over 1,000, you are likely to get a different count after examining a replay. The CompuBox people have no second chance to examine their tabulations. At the rate punches are thrown in a boxing match you have to be constantly alert to count the next punches rather than re-examine the previous ones.


    Of course the ringside judges don't have the stats at their disposal, so it can't taint any official decision. But what is disturbing to me is the television announcer's dependence on them. Jim Lampley, who does a terrific job of anchoring an announcing crew, is maybe the worst abuser of this. At the beginning of every round he recites the previous rounds numbers as if they were gospel. It seems to effect his analysis of the fight, which may be why so many people watching the fight on TV thought Oscar De La Hoya beat Shane Mosley in the rematch, while the press covering it live generally observed Shane landing the much harder punches. ESPN's Joe Tessitore dutifully gives out the punch stats before going back to his comfortable mode of setting up Teddy Atlas with questions the entire round.


    My point is that boxing matches are best scored by watching rather than tabulating. Years ago I stopped scoring fights because I found it deterred from my enjoyment of them. I believe that HBO would be better serving their viewers by evaluating what they are seeing rather than trying to measure it. Having their own judge, Harold Lederman, is quite adequate for keeping the viewers with a perspective of how the scoring is progressing. I just don't have blind faith in other humans frantically counting and evaluating punches without the benefit of review.

    GREAT post and thread topic. Both original and thought provoking!! It's funny, but I to do not like to score the fight the first time I see it because I also do not enjoy it as much.

    Comment


    • #3
      I agree like Whitaker vs ODLH by about round 5 Whitaker had "landed 85 power punches on Whitaker."

      I thought that was odd and Larry Merchant seemed to agree with me.

      Comment


      • #4
        Great thread.

        I don't put too much thought into the punch stats. I merely use it as a guide line and take it for exactly what it is; a rough estimate.

        Some fights I watch and think there is simply no way the punches landed are that close/wide.

        Comment


        • #5
          best thread of the contest so far....

          ODLH vs whitaker is a great example.....

          there are some fighters u have to watch in slowmotion cause they punch so fast or the slip punches by just a milliometer....

          like duran leonard one leonard would flurie and sometimes they would land but allot of times durans head was turning a split second before the punch cause he was rlling with them but the punch is throw and some sweat flys and they thing leonard is sticking him

          dont think they had punch stats then but u get the point.... sometimes it to hard to tell....

          the ones that count are the ones that have and effect on the fighter or that clearly land....

          i watched barreramorales 1 yeasterday and i scored it 115-113 barrera judges thought morales won and it was a close fight so i dont think u can really complain....

          but i thought barrera landed more solid shots....

          morales landed more acording to compubox but allot of them were blocked slighty or rolled with....

          punch stats are a great way to find out whos is trowing more....

          but the best way to score it is to have experienced unbiase judeges

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by ghns1133 View Post

            like duran leonard one leonard would flurie and sometimes they would land but allot of times durans head was turning a split second before the punch cause he was rlling with them but the punch is throw and some sweat flys and they thing leonard is sticking him
            Duran Leonard 1 is the exact fight I'd quote too. A lot of Leonard punches flicked Duran's hair and together with crowd reaction leads many to score for Leonard. I've even seen people on here say Leonard won. It was a good competitive fight but Duran clearly won IMO
            Good fighters slip punches and block and take the sting out of even power punches, cold hard stats don't always reflect that. Innocuous powder puff punches can often be a major part of the chess match that boxing at it's best is. Might be my age but I don't buy into the numbers game much. I think it was Disraeli who said there are lies, damn lies then there are statistics

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GJC View Post
              Duran Leonard 1 is the exact fight I'd quote too. A lot of Leonard punches flicked Duran's hair and together with crowd reaction leads many to score for Leonard. I've even seen people on here say Leonard won. It was a good competitive fight but Duran clearly won IMO
              Good fighters slip punches and block and take the sting out of even power punches, cold hard stats don't always reflect that. Innocuous powder puff punches can often be a major part of the chess match that boxing at it's best is. Might be my age but I don't buy into the numbers game much. I think it was Disraeli who said there are lies, damn lies then there are statistics
              Disraeli told you that over tea

              Poet

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by poet682006 View Post
                Disraeli told you that over tea

                Poet
                Set myself up for that a bit didn't I?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GJC View Post
                  Set myself up for that a bit didn't I?
                  :chuckle9: :chuckle9: :chuckle9:

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I dont put much stock into it, Compubox is justa talking point, a bit of fun to me. I actually question how Accurate it is too.

                    BTW what ever happened to that New technology that was supposed to be going in the fighters gloves that recorded punch speed and PSI force ect?

                    Comment

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