Points: Sam Langford's Power: Real or Myth?

[Greatest1942]

Jack Blackburns knowledge a lot from the 166 so fights that he had.Blackburn speaking of those early days with his young protégé said, July 20, 1935 Pittsburgh Courier, “Louis needed correction in everything except hitting. I had to teach him to back up his punches with the proper timing, accuracy and to instruct him in the proper art of balance. I trained him under the same methods I trained under when I was a fighter.” Blackburns career ranged from years 1901 to 1923

Jack Blackburn trained Louis on the model of Joe Gans...here is what Sam says about it -"The Detroit Bomber is another Gans, whom I consider the greatest fighter of all time… He (Louis) can hit, he is fast and is no slouch at employing ring craft. I am glad I am still able to see enough to watch the boy. He is the marvel of the age.”

Joe Gans was a fantastic combination puncher and had shocking stopping power much like Joe Louis..

This whole theory that combination punching did not exist before Louis is a myth. read this for a description of a classic Gans Ko

“Like lightning the champion whipped a crashing left straight as a die onto Herman's jugular. Before Herman could collect himself the champion's powerful right had crossed in a sledgehammer swing to the point of the jaw, and Herman measured his length on the floor of the arena. As Gans delivered that crushing right swing he turned his back and walked away. He didn't have to look to find out what damage the blow had inflicted. He knew instinctively the minute the blow reached home that his championship laurels were safe from the reach of Herman. It was the same telling swing that had won him thousands upon thousands of dollars in the prize ring and the one that never failed when landed with that deadly accuracy.”

[kendom]

I don't think I put everything into combinations. I said Louis and the newer fighters smiply were better at putting their power to use. Did you ever see Louis wasting any punches? He was a finely tuned machine. Much diffirent to the guys from the 1900s who had a lot of wild flurries and mostly arm punches. I mean guys like Louis, Walcott, Marciano and RObinson knocked people out cold with very short punches. That's some serious power.

And for your question about Blackburn, maybe he evolved with the times? And trainers who used to fight don't really teach their own style to their students. They look at what works best for their fighters.

Jack Blackburn trained Louis on the model of Joe Gans...here is what Sam says about it -"The Detroit Bomber is another Gans, whom I consider the greatest fighter of all time… He (Louis) can hit, he is fast and is no slouch at employing ring craft. I am glad I am still able to see enough to watch the boy. He is the marvel of the age.”

Joe Gans was a fantastic combination puncher and had shocking stopping power much like Joe Louis..

This whole theory that combination punching did not exist before Louis is a myth. read this for a description of a classic Gans Ko

“Like lightning the champion whipped a crashing left straight as a die onto Herman's jugular. Before Herman could collect himself the champion's powerful right had crossed in a sledgehammer swing to the point of the jaw, and Herman measured his length on the floor of the arena. As Gans delivered that crushing right swing he turned his back and walked away. He didn't have to look to find out what damage the blow had inflicted. He knew instinctively the minute the blow reached home that his championship laurels were safe from the reach of Herman. It was the same telling swing that had won him thousands upon thousands of dollars in the prize ring and the one that never failed when landed with that deadly accuracy.”

I've seen that knockout described its incredible and the way Gans just walks away is sooo bad!!!. Whats so special about it is that in the days when a fighter could stand over another fighter when he had him hurt and there was no neutral corner rule- Gans didnt feel the need to stand over him, as he KNEW he'd knocked him out..

[JAB5239]

Same thing here. You would rather just look at resumes and make your case. But again, we are looking at punching power here, and the most important way to judge that is by looking at footage not just records. And unfortunately, there is enough footage of Langford to conclude that he's not even close to the hardest hitters of all time who have proven it with their records AS WELL as their footage.

Don't get me wrong, Langford obviously had a lot of power for his size. But calling him the hardest puncher ever is a gigantic bold claim which holds no weight at all if you look at what is available.

What are first hand and newspaper accounts of fights and fighters? They're footage replayed by the brain and transformed into words. Now I've heard people claim favoritism for the era, nostalgia and all sorts of other things when this is brought up. But that would either mean everything people who actually saw it said about Langford's power was a lie and there has been a conspiracy to make fighters with little film better than they were. Personally I can think of no reason why this would be true since very few if any of us think how our opinions will be perceived 100 years from now.

[BKM-2010]

I don't buy it, but your'e welcome to your opinion. I never said that Langford was the hardest puncher ever but, damn, you cannot claim he was'nt a great puncher, most don't agree with you that's all, and he had many skills, 2 fights out of 300 plus is not a lot, did you see Sam drop Jeannette 3 or 4 times ????

And I didn't claim he wasn't a great puncher. I said he was all of those claims in HIS time. But if you start comparing him to the many decades of fighters who came after him he will drop down considerably in the list of rankings. And that's perfectly normal and logical. it only makes sense that the sport will evolve which hit did.

Sam while giving a lot of weight and height , knocked out Willis with one punch. Same with Gunboat Smith...

You are missing a valid point, you have only a few videos of Sam..if I show you a video of George Foreman vs Peralta ...whom George could not knock out in ten rounds in spite hitting him multiple times ,and you never see anything else of of George, what will you say? George has a weak punch?

Marciano hit Savold repeatedly, but he did not budge...if you see that fight of Rock, same conclusion right.

Sam knocked out big heavies Jeanette, Harry Willis, with one single punch...The quote of Harry Willis, about Sam's punch is still there. Those were not knocked out regularly or easily, and it took some one of Sam's power to knock them out.

I would say that that's a 21 year old Foreman who wasn't even physically matured yet to become the monster that he was later on. Plus you're talking 1 fight. You can't tell me that it's some kind of coincidence that all of these fights aren't his best moments. There are several fights available from Langford and nowhere does he even show anything close to the "hardest hitter ever". Just because some old people WANT that to be true, doesn't mean it is. I can name a bunch of punchers who would have finished the guys Langford struggled with in a very short time frame compared to him.

And don't get it twisted, I am not saying he had a weak punch like you're implying. I am simply dismissing the laughable claim of a 185 pounder from the early 1900s having either the hardest or one of the hardest punches ever.

[BKM-2010]

Jack Blackburn trained Louis on the model of Joe Gans...here is what Sam says about it -"The Detroit Bomber is another Gans, whom I consider the greatest fighter of all time… He (Louis) can hit, he is fast and is no slouch at employing ring craft. I am glad I am still able to see enough to watch the boy. He is the marvel of the age.”

Joe Gans was a fantastic combination puncher and had shocking stopping power much like Joe Louis..

This whole theory that combination punching did not exist before Louis is a myth. read this for a description of a classic Gans Ko

“Like lightning the champion whipped a crashing left straight as a die onto Herman's jugular. Before Herman could collect himself the champion's powerful right had crossed in a sledgehammer swing to the point of the jaw, and Herman measured his length on the floor of the arena. As Gans delivered that crushing right swing he turned his back and walked away. He didn't have to look to find out what damage the blow had inflicted. He knew instinctively the minute the blow reached home that his championship laurels were safe from the reach of Herman. It was the same telling swing that had won him thousands upon thousands of dollars in the prize ring and the one that never failed when landed with that deadly accuracy.”

I never claimed combination punching didn't exist that's just kendom putting words into my mouth. I believe from what I've read and seen, as a whole, the basics were there in the early 1900s, evolved thoroughly and perfected in the middle of the 20th century.

[BKM-2010]

What are first hand and newspaper accounts of fights and fighters? They're footage replayed by the brain and transformed into words. Now I've heard people claim favoritism for the era, nostalgia and all sorts of other things when this is brought up. But that would either mean everything people who actually saw it said about Langford's power was a lie and there has been a conspiracy to make fighters with little film better than they were. Personally I can think of no reason why this would be true since very few if any of us think how our opinions will be perceived 100 years from now.

We can still rank fighters based on resumes and opinions, but not in terms of physical attributes. You need footage. How can we rank the fastest fighters ever without seeing them in the ring doing their thing? It's the same for punching power.

[JAB5239]

We can still rank fighters based on resumes and opinions, but not in terms of physical attributes. You need footage. How can we rank the fastest fighters ever without seeing them in the ring doing their thing? It's the same for punching power.

I disagree my friend. Speed is a very subjective thing to judge. You have the speed of combo's, the jab, you have fighters who are quick in short bursts and fighters who are fast the entire fight. The power of the ko is definitive, especially with a guy who only needs one punch to do it. Langford falls under that category, did it from lightweight to heavyweight and more times than not gave up huge advantages in height and weight. On top of this his ko's came against unquestionable top notch quality.

“Sam Langford was the toughest little son of a ***** that ever lived.” -- Jack Johnson

“The hell I feared no man. There was one man I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford.” -- Jack Dempsey

“When Sam hit you in the body, you’d kind of look around half expecting to see his glove sticking out of your back. When he hit you on the chin, you didn’t think at all until they brought you back to life. When he knocked me out in New Orleans, I thought I’d been Killed. -- Harry Wills

“The greatest hitter of them all, bar none, was Sam Langford.” -- Harry Wills

“Langford was the greatest fighter who ever lived. Sam would have been champion any time Johnson had given him a fight. And Johnson knew it better than anybody. Man! How that baby could hit. Nobody else could hit like that. Well, maybe Joe Louis could, but don’t forgot that Sam only weighed about 160 pounds. Louis was about 195.”-- Joe Jeannette

“I’d pick him (Langford) to knock out Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano. When he was not under wraps, he was a ring marvel.” -- Frank Erne

“Who’s the best heavyweight I ever saw? That’s an easy one. Sam Langford and nobody ever came close to being as good as he was at this peak. Why, old Sam could do everything. He could punch from any position and hit hard too. He was a master boxer, difficult to hit, but if you did land you might just as well try to make an impression upon the floor of the Garden. He would take all the heart out of you and then give you a fine pasting. He ruined me. I was all through after that last fight with Langford in Boston. -- “Gunboat” Smith

[McGoorty]

And I didn't claim he wasn't a great puncher. I said he was all of those claims in HIS time. But if you start comparing him to the many decades of fighters who came after him he will drop down considerably in the list of rankings. And that's perfectly normal and logical. it only makes sense that the sport will evolve which hit did.



I would say that that's a 21 year old Foreman who wasn't even physically matured yet to become the monster that he was later on. Plus you're talking 1 fight. You can't tell me that it's some kind of coincidence that all of these fights aren't his best moments. There are several fights available from Langford and nowhere does he even show anything close to the "hardest hitter ever". Just because some old people WANT that to be true, doesn't mean it is. I can name a bunch of punchers who would have finished the guys Langford struggled with in a very short time frame compared to him.

And don't get it twisted, I am not saying he had a weak punch like you're implying. I am simply dismissing the laughable claim of a 185 pounder from the early 1900s having either the hardest or one of the hardest punches ever.

Evolved ?????????,.... The old timers were better fighters so I don't agree with that statement. We are poles apart in our thinking, and it's a good thing because I'd get bored if we all thought alike, imagine if all music was the same, boring huh.

[kendom]

I never claimed combination punching didn't exist that's just kendom putting words into my mouth. I believe from what I've read and seen, as a whole, the basics were there in the early 1900s, evolved thoroughly and perfected in the middle of the 20th century.

You said that fighters from the 1900s threw mainly arm punches and Louis was the first to not waste punches and be economical...Joe gans didnt waste punches and was economical in fact fighters then HAD to be economical, they were fighting 25 rounds.

[Rspen46]

To me having lost 10x to Harry Wills say's a lot,and it should have been 12, but in 2 of the losses, Will's got careless after being way ahead and thought he would go for a KO and Sam landed what could be considered a lucky punch both times, either way he did lose 10, he also lost to Mcvey & Jeannette, they all beat each other up, & if he was that awesome, he would have beaten all 3 of them 9 outta 10x but he didnt, he also beat Joe Gans a LW at the time while he was at least a MW, and Gans just fought a tough bout the nite before, took a long train ride to face Sam & fought him the next day & by most accounts Gans won as many as 5 or 6 of the 1st 7 rounds & many thought Gans still deserved the decision, also Gans was sick, so based on that, a well rested Gans easily wins, so I rate Gans over Langford, if he can't be a tired, sick LW while weighing 160 or even KO him early, then to me that along with his 10 losses to Will's & losses to Mcvey & Jeannette, take a lot away from his so called legend, he probably deserves top 10 ranking in at least 2 Divisions still, but not as great as many like to claim.