2 billion: More reasons why Lewis is an ATG top 10

[Greatest1942]

I think that is fair.

Actually Jab as I stated earlier I know Lewis is one of the few who defeated everyone he faced. But still his two loses does not show up well. Once is fine , at the *** end of the career like Johnson to Willard is may be okay too...But Lewis got beat twice at his supposed prime. Anyways my main grudge is he not giving Vitaly a rematch. Yes he was old. So was Louis after the 1st Walcoot fight. He gave Walcott a rematch still. Lewis on the other hand , waits for a awful long time, thinks about it. Then suddenly retires. If he defeated Vitaly cleanly ( no doubt he could) it would be better in my opinion.

Often Lewis is criticized for being overly cautious against very mediocre opponents. Though I am neutral on that.

I saw the Holy- Lewis fight two months ago and gave it by a slight margin to Holy. I agree it was close though.

All in all a very good candidate for top 10 all time heavy. But to put my neck forward many may logically form a top 10 without Lewis on it. An yes it will be a valid list. Doesnt mean he should not be in top 10 either.

[JAB5239]

Hopkins is past it, well past it. His best years were 10+ years ago.

Beating him now would be a legit win considering he is at the top of the division and still an evident capable fighter but he is still obviously well past his best years.

Similar to Lewis' win over Holyfield

Although; Beating Holyfield in 1999 >>>>>>>>>>> Beating Hopkins in 2011

Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been busy.

First I want to sat that you were right, I applied a double standard to what you pointed out about McCallum. But like Holyfield, I don't believe that Hopkins is well past it either. Both were/are performing at an incredible standard in spite of their age. Both were/are still showing great all time abilities.

I am not a huge fan of Lewis, I use to be a huge detractor, but I've grown to respect his accomplishments. If we're going to take away from him, shouldn't we take away from a Marciano who fought in a much weaker era? Shouldn't we take away from a Dempsey who ducked 2 of the 3 best fighters of his era and sat on his title? Shouldn't we take away from a Jack Johnson who drew the color line against his own people and refused to fight the next best heavyweight of his era? To Foreman who lost to a jimmy Young and only beat a past prime (going by the standards that have been set by some here) Frazier? Faults can be found in almost every great heavyweights resume, but not to many can claim to have beaten every fighter they ever faced in a very good era.I'll leave it at that because I don't expect everyone to see it like I do. But I do expect a fair standard in comparison to other greats in that division.

[IronDanHamza]

Sorry I haven't responded sooner but I've been busy.

First I want to sat that you were right, I applied a double standard to what you pointed out about McCallum. But like Holyfield, I don't believe that Hopkins is well past it either. Both were/are performing at an incredible standard in spite of their age. Both were/are still showing great all time abilities.

We will have to agree to disagree, then.

Just because they are both performing well doesn't mean they are in their primes or close. It's just shows how great they actually are that they can still perform to such a level whilst quite a way past their prime.

I am not a huge fan of Lewis, I use to be a huge detractor, but I've grown to respect his accomplishments. If we're going to take away from him, shouldn't we take away from a Marciano who fought in a much weaker era? Shouldn't we take away from a Dempsey who ducked 2 of the 3 best fighters of his era and sat on his title? Shouldn't we take away from a Jack Johnson who drew the color line against his own people and refused to fight the next best heavyweight of his era? To Foreman who lost to a jimmy Young and only beat a past prime (going by the standards that have been set by some here) Frazier? Faults can be found in almost every great heavyweights resume, but not to many can claim to have beaten every fighter they ever faced in a very good era.I'll leave it at that because I don't expect everyone to see it like I do. But I do expect a fair standard in comparison to other greats in that division.
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I respect his accomplishments, absolutely.

He's not in my Top 10 HW list but I list with him in it would be legit IMO.

The thing is, I haven't torn down Lewis resume once in my entire stay in this forum. Just search my history, Infact, I have NEVER ever even discredited Lewis on this forum at all to my memory. I barely ever even post about Lennox Lewis at all.

I haven't 'taken away from him' ,show me where I have. In this thread or in any thread.

You say you 'expect a fair comparison to other HW greats' as if I have said something to discredit Lewis and not used the same standard for another HW. I haven't.

All I have done is merely state that Evander Holyfield was not close to his prime in 1999 because he simply wasn't. Regardless to that fact he was performing well.

I sense you are taking that comment as an insult to Lennox Lewis or a way of discrediting his accomplishments for some reason. Yet, I have stated on numerous occasions that is a legit win for Lewis against the best fighter available. A feat in which he deserves credit for, no question.

But, I'm not and never going to agree that Holyfield was close to his prime in 1999 becase the fact of the matter is he simply was not.

[crold1]

I Have Him at #9

9) Lennox Lewis (1989-2003)
Record: 42-2-1, 32 KO
Lineal World Champion 1998-2001, 6 Defenses; 2001-04, 2 Defenses
WBC Titlist 1992-94, 3 Defenses; WBC 1997-99, 6 Defenses; WBC/WBA/IBF 99-2000; WBC/IBF 00-01, 3 Defenses; WBC/IBF 01-02, 1 Defense; WBC 2002-03, 1 Defense
Heavyweight Titlists/Champions Faced – 13: (Mike Weaver, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Shannon Briggs, Evander Holyfield, Frans Botha, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, Vitali Klitschko)

The only British-born lineal Heavyweight champion of the 20th Century, Lewis was an outstanding amateur before his paid career began. Representing Canada as a Super Heavyweight at both the 1984 and 88 Olympics, he’d lose on points to eventual Gold Medalist Tyrell Biggs in the second round of his first Games. Improving four years later, Lewis scored three knockouts at the latter to win Gold, the last of these a second round standing stop of future Heavyweight champion Rid**** Bowe. In London for his pro debut, Lewis was not fully received by the British public for many years even as he posted a stream of knockouts. His breakthrough win to contention came in stopping fringe contender Gary Mason, then 35-0, in seven in March 1991. Four months later, he made his U.S. debut with a sixth round July stop of faded former titlist Weaver, adding former Cruiserweight titlist Glenn McCrory and a revenge of the amateur loss to Biggs by year’s end. Three more wins led to another breakthrough for Lewis, entering the underdog against knockout artist “Razor” Ruddock in a WBC eliminator. Lewis struck early, dropping Ruddock hard at the end of the first and twice in the second for a big win in October 1991. Unable to secure a shot at a newly crowned Bowe for the undisputed crown, Lewis settled for the subsequently vacated WBC belt. Defending three times, his first defense saw him drop former titlist Tony Tucker twice en route to a decision and second saw him overcome some big shots in a spry performance from British rival Frank Bruno, bailing himself out with a mammoth hook to set up a stoppage in seven. Two fights later, a staggering right hand from Oliver McCall dropped Lewis hard for the first time in his pro tenure; he beat the count easily but, still shaken, was not afforded the opportunity to work through it. The man who trained McCall that night, Emanuel Steward, joined Team Lewis for the remainder of his career and Lewis would not lose again for six years. Three fights into his 1995 campaign, Lewis faced big punching Tommy Morrison and the next year faced 1988 Olympic Heavyweight Gold Medalist Ray Mercer, beating the first by knockout in seven and winning a grueling decision in the other. Lewis earned another mandatory shot at the WBC’s belt, vacated by Mike Tyson. It would be the start of a bizarre three fight stretch. The WBC belt was up for grabs in a rematch with an unstable McCall fresh from drug rehab; McCall quit fighting by the third, was in tears by the fourth, finally turning his back in the fifth and drawing a stop. It was followed with a disqualification win over a Henry Akinwande who wouldn’t stop holding and a first round blowout of Andrew Golota who struggled to make it to the arena. Things returned to relative normalcy in March 1998, Lewis overcoming an early buzzing to stop Shannon Briggs for the lineal crown in five. Two fights later, Lewis secured a unification showdown with then WBA/IBF titlist Evander Holyfield. The underdog in Madison Square Garden in March 1999, Lewis dominated the action only to settle for an outrageous draw. Holyfield improved markedly in the rematch but not enough for the judges and Lewis was awarded a unanimous decision. 2000 was a dominant year featuring wins over his top two contenders, Michael Grant by knockout and David Tua by decision. He was stripped of the WBA belt in court prior to Grant, despite offering mandatory John Ruiz a summer 2000 fight between his other outings that year and garnering a favorable ruling from the sanctioning body. April 2001 was anything but favorable, traveling to South Africa and hearing a ten count for the first time at the hands of Hasim Rahman. Lewis bounced back in November, leveling Rahman in four to become only the fifth man to regain the lineal crown. Lewis closed his career with a big money win over a well worn Tyson, gave up his IBF belt for big money rather than fighting mandatory Chris Byrd, and survived a scare against Vitali Klitschko in June 2003, winning on a cut stoppage. With a Klitschko rematch possible, Lewis elected to step away from the game in early 2004 at age 38. To date, he is only the third reigning champion to retire, and stay retired, with the crown after Gene Tunney and Rocky Marciano.

Why He’s Here: Lewis, at 6’5 and between 230 and 245 lbs. in his prime, was not the sports first “big” big man. What made Lewis special was what he brought to that frame. Early in his career, Lewis’s balance was sometimes a problem but his best attributes were always there. Deceptively quick and fluid in combination, technically proficient (even if it meant some dull affairs), and possessing a concussive right hand, Lewis learned to use his size to remarkable affect. His competition was solid on paper for most of the years between 1991 and 2003 despite some odd outcomes. While he can’t get much credit for the Tyson he beat, the aged Holyfield he defeated was still world class to go along with the other notable contenders he toppled through the years. There are two often made points, one negative and the other supporting, about Lewis which are both somewhat overstated. The negative is that he had a weak chin. Lewis’s chin wasn’t the best ever seen, but it wasn’t bad either. He was put down only twice; he stayed down once, already well into his 30s. Bruno, Mercer, Klitschko and Holyfield (in the rematch) all caught him with big shots and Lewis took them. The McCall stoppage was at least debatable, and could be seen as carrying undertones of political and economic convenience. The supporting argument is Lewis was avoided for years, also only partly true. Bowe was in no hurry to fight him right after winning the title in 1992 but, had Bowe not lost it the following year, the two likely would have faced off by 1994. There were, at the time, reported monetary issues in making a fight both sides seemed to believe could get bigger with marinade. They missed other chances to fight when Lewis lost his belt to McCall that year and later when Bowe fell apart against Golota. Unification opportunities were discussed with Holyfield in 1994 but both he and Lewis lost that year; recent comments by Lewis indicate that his HBO contract was a big and underreported impediment to a Tyson fight in 1996. The full body of his career certainly doesn’t lack for big fights or big opportunities and Lewis made the most of them coming through a strong 1990s Heavyweight division and dominating its last gasps before an era of mostly B-class, too often D-cupped, mediocrity fully set in. When he retired Lewis held a win over every man he ever faced, a rare accomplishment in any era. Lewis was elected to the IBHOF in 2009.

[nomadman]

I think it's extremely petty to hold Lennox's two losses against him the way some people do. Fighters eff up. The most they can do is avenge their effups in emphatic fashion, which is what Lennox did. Do they detract from his legacy? Absolutely. Do they send it crashing to the canvas, never to rise to be allowed a place in the top ten? Nope, no way. Lennox is a bonafide great. His wins, his dominance and the depth of his resume more than attest to that.