How would Marciano vs patterson have ended?

[JAB5239]

Why do you think he retired then?

I don't think he felt he had anything else to prove or any other threats to conquer, so why not retire on top. He took on the best competition available during his reign. And while I have no proof I certainly don't think it had anything to do with Patterson or especially Liston.

Marciano's answer to a bunch of school children who asked if he thought he could beat Patterson shortly after Floyd beat Archie Moore for the title -"If I said I could beat him I would be bragging. If I said I would lose to him I'd be lying."

[BigStereotype]

With Patterson unconscious on the ground. Maybe for a good length of time.

[Yogi]

Why do you think he retired then?

The public reasoning he gave on announcing it had to do with him wanting to spend more time with his wife and young daughter. According to him, his wife was supposedly on to him to call it quits for some time up until he did. He also made the point about how his mother would be happy to see him retire since she never did want him to be a fighter.

Privately, some of those around him suggested his back was an issue. But, for the most part, they pointed to the main reason being him wanting to get away from Al Weill.

Couple of quick quotes from those close to him;


"There were many reasons why Rocky retired. But the absolute main one was Al Weill. He just hated the guy and didn't trust." - Sonny Marciano

"Rocky and I discussed it. Several times his back had gone out on him, and he was really crippled up when that happened. He knew the back could go at any time in the ring, and Rocky was too proud to use that as an excuse. The Rock was no dummy...I think it was a combination of Weill, his family, and everything else." - Ernie Clivio


Part of that "everything else" could be attributed to Marciano's losing some of the enthusiasm he had for boxing at that time. That showed up previous to the ****ell fight especially where Marciano voiced many concerns about how he "couldn't get up for this fight" and things of that nature.


"The family had nothing to do with it. Rocky was burned up about the ten thousand dollars from the ****ell fight. He and Weill had split up almost half a million from the Moore fight, and Rocky had worked a deal to have the money spread out over three years. Then he heard Weill had scalped thousands of dollars in tickets on the Moore fight. Rocky wanted his cut, but Weill wouldn't give him anything. He was bull****. He figured with all that dough spread over three years, with the taxes he'd be fighting for nothing." - Mike Piccento


The $10,000 Piccento spoke of was investigated by the California Boxing Commission who found out that Weill did indeed have a shady side deal going on that enabled him to skim that ten grand off the top of the profits.

As far as Patterson goes, he wasn't even a rated heavyweight contender by Ring ****zine or the NBA at the time of Marciano's announcement;

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+ratings&hl=en

The NBA listed no logical contender to the title. Jackson, Baker and Valdes, in that order, as "outstanding heavies". Holman, Summerlin, Pastrano, Cavicchi, Carter and Satterfield were listed in the "honorable mention" category. Moore was listed only as a light heavyweight in the NBA's ratings.

The following is a copy & paste job from an old post of mine on another site that might suggest what the heavyweight scene looked like at that time;


Here's an old Ring ****zine (Feb of 1956) article on that Baker/Valdes "fight" as written by Joe Smith;

"Had it been billed as just another heavyweight bout, Bob Baker and Nino Valdes might have turned in a real battle in Cleveland. But the mistake was in advertising the winner as Rocky Marciano's next opponent in a world championship bout. That must have scared off both rivals. Neither apparently wanted to be Marciano's next victim. So, instead of fighting to win, Bob and Nino acted as though they were doing their utmost to lose and get eliminated. Valdes was the more successful. He managed to lose. But Baker, in winning, also did a good job of eliminating himself as a prospective Marciano opponent. It was a dull, uninspired, drab, no-account affair which bored the 8,380 onlookers to distraction and evoked catcalls and other derisive noises.

The dreary affair vindicated Marciano and Jim Norris, both of whom had said that Archie Moore, despite his knockout by Marciano last September, stood out well beyond any other contender for the 1956 engagement with the champion.

As a consequence, it may be regarded as virtually certain that Moore will get his return bout with Marciano.

It is my impression that Marciano could beat Moore any time they get together. But the ring has had its startling surprises in the past, and Archie may have one hidden in his gloves when next he encounters the champion.

Baker's decision over Valdes was his second against the Cuban. Bob had taken Nino at Huntington, West Va. on May 21, 1953.

How, with so rich a prize at stake, Baker and Valdes could have produced so horrible a bout in Cleveland is beyond all conception and calculation.

They didn't punch, they pushed gloves at each other with incredible imperturbability in so far as the Marciano match and the reaction of the crowd were concerned. Two pals in one stable could not have been more unaggressive and more solicitous of each other's welfare.

The fact is that it was a bad match. The Baker and Valdes styles did not dovetail as they should have fitted for a good fight.

In addition, it may have been that Baker and Valdes were too conscious of the importance of their elimination fight, and refused to take big chances. They forgot Moore.

No matter what the reasons, Baker and Valdes defeated the primary purpose of their meeting, and thoroughly bilked those who had paid $63,392 to see the card.

If there was any consolation for the disappointed patrons, it derived from the fact that their money, minus $25,000 for the fighters, went into the Cleveland News Christmas Fund, a worthy local charity.

Baker weighed 213 1/2 pounds and Valdes 207. Nino's early knockout of Don ****ell in London last September had lifted him to a prominent spot. But he blew all the benefits which had accrued from that victory. In fact, the Cuban blew himself right into limbo.

The failure of the main event to arouse the onlookers to anything but derision played up the semi final, in which Eduardo Lausse, Argentine middleweight, scored his thirtieth consecutive victory. He stopped England's John L. Sullivan after one minute of action in the fifth round. Referee Lou Parker intervened, with Sullivan totally unable to defend himself.

Orlando Zulueta, Cuban lightweight, got a unanimous eight round decision over Walter Brown, of Baltimore, and Gasper Ortega, New York middleweight, outpointed Tony Gonzales of East Orange, N.J. in a six rounder."

[Scott9945]

Patterson didn't want any of Marciano. I heard him say pretty much that too.

[JAB5239]

The public reasoning he gave on announcing it had to do with him wanting to spend more time with his wife and young daughter. According to him, his wife was supposedly on to him to call it quits for some time up until he did. He also made the point about how his mother would be happy to see him retire since she never did want him to be a fighter.

Privately, some of those around him suggested his back was an issue. But, for the most part, they pointed to the main reason being him wanting to get away from Al Weill.

Couple of quick quotes from those close to him;


"There were many reasons why Rocky retired. But the absolute main one was Al Weill. He just hated the guy and didn't trust." - Sonny Marciano

"Rocky and I discussed it. Several times his back had gone out on him, and he was really crippled up when that happened. He knew the back could go at any time in the ring, and Rocky was too proud to use that as an excuse. The Rock was no dummy...I think it was a combination of Weill, his family, and everything else." - Ernie Clivio


Part of that "everything else" could be attributed to Marciano's losing some of the enthusiasm he had for boxing at that time. That showed up previous to the ****ell fight especially where Marciano voiced many concerns about how he "couldn't get up for this fight" and things of that nature.


"The family had nothing to do with it. Rocky was burned up about the ten thousand dollars from the ****ell fight. He and Weill had split up almost half a million from the Moore fight, and Rocky had worked a deal to have the money spread out over three years. Then he heard Weill had scalped thousands of dollars in tickets on the Moore fight. Rocky wanted his cut, but Weill wouldn't give him anything. He was bull****. He figured with all that dough spread over three years, with the taxes he'd be fighting for nothing." - Mike Piccento


The $10,000 Piccento spoke of was investigated by the California Boxing Commission who found out that Weill did indeed have a shady side deal going on that enabled him to skim that ten grand off the top of the profits.

As far as Patterson goes, he wasn't even a rated heavyweight contender by Ring ****zine or the NBA at the time of Marciano's announcement;

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+ratings&hl=en

The NBA listed no logical contender to the title. Jackson, Baker and Valdes, in that order, as "outstanding heavies". Holman, Summerlin, Pastrano, Cavicchi, Carter and Satterfield were listed in the "honorable mention" category. Moore was listed only as a light heavyweight in the NBA's ratings.

The following is a copy & paste job from an old post of mine on another site that might suggest what the heavyweight scene looked like at that time;


Here's an old Ring ****zine (Feb of 1956) article on that Baker/Valdes "fight" as written by Joe Smith;

"Had it been billed as just another heavyweight bout, Bob Baker and Nino Valdes might have turned in a real battle in Cleveland. But the mistake was in advertising the winner as Rocky Marciano's next opponent in a world championship bout. That must have scared off both rivals. Neither apparently wanted to be Marciano's next victim. So, instead of fighting to win, Bob and Nino acted as though they were doing their utmost to lose and get eliminated. Valdes was the more successful. He managed to lose. But Baker, in winning, also did a good job of eliminating himself as a prospective Marciano opponent. It was a dull, uninspired, drab, no-account affair which bored the 8,380 onlookers to distraction and evoked catcalls and other derisive noises.

The dreary affair vindicated Marciano and Jim Norris, both of whom had said that Archie Moore, despite his knockout by Marciano last September, stood out well beyond any other contender for the 1956 engagement with the champion.

As a consequence, it may be regarded as virtually certain that Moore will get his return bout with Marciano.

It is my impression that Marciano could beat Moore any time they get together. But the ring has had its startling surprises in the past, and Archie may have one hidden in his gloves when next he encounters the champion.

Baker's decision over Valdes was his second against the Cuban. Bob had taken Nino at Huntington, West Va. on May 21, 1953.

How, with so rich a prize at stake, Baker and Valdes could have produced so horrible a bout in Cleveland is beyond all conception and calculation.

They didn't punch, they pushed gloves at each other with incredible imperturbability in so far as the Marciano match and the reaction of the crowd were concerned. Two pals in one stable could not have been more unaggressive and more solicitous of each other's welfare.

The fact is that it was a bad match. The Baker and Valdes styles did not dovetail as they should have fitted for a good fight.

In addition, it may have been that Baker and Valdes were too conscious of the importance of their elimination fight, and refused to take big chances. They forgot Moore.

No matter what the reasons, Baker and Valdes defeated the primary purpose of their meeting, and thoroughly bilked those who had paid $63,392 to see the card.

If there was any consolation for the disappointed patrons, it derived from the fact that their money, minus $25,000 for the fighters, went into the Cleveland News Christmas Fund, a worthy local charity.

Baker weighed 213 1/2 pounds and Valdes 207. Nino's early knockout of Don ****ell in London last September had lifted him to a prominent spot. But he blew all the benefits which had accrued from that victory. In fact, the Cuban blew himself right into limbo.

The failure of the main event to arouse the onlookers to anything but derision played up the semi final, in which Eduardo Lausse, Argentine middleweight, scored his thirtieth consecutive victory. He stopped England's John L. Sullivan after one minute of action in the fifth round. Referee Lou Parker intervened, with Sullivan totally unable to defend himself.

Orlando Zulueta, Cuban lightweight, got a unanimous eight round decision over Walter Brown, of Baltimore, and Gasper Ortega, New York middleweight, outpointed Tony Gonzales of East Orange, N.J. in a six rounder."

So good to have you back!!

[forget]

When Patterson arrived on the scene Marciano was pretty much already retired(even if he was still fighting) Patterson might have been to unseed the champion if he boxed. Had they met while still in their primes Marciano would have been a nightmare for Patterson!!

[Greatest1942]

The public reasoning he gave on announcing it had to do with him wanting to spend more time with his wife and young daughter. According to him, his wife was supposedly on to him to call it quits for some time up until he did. He also made the point about how his mother would be happy to see him retire since she never did want him to be a fighter.

Privately, some of those around him suggested his back was an issue. But, for the most part, they pointed to the main reason being him wanting to get away from Al Weill.

Couple of quick quotes from those close to him;


"There were many reasons why Rocky retired. But the absolute main one was Al Weill. He just hated the guy and didn't trust." - Sonny Marciano

"Rocky and I discussed it. Several times his back had gone out on him, and he was really crippled up when that happened. He knew the back could go at any time in the ring, and Rocky was too proud to use that as an excuse. The Rock was no dummy...I think it was a combination of Weill, his family, and everything else." - Ernie Clivio


Part of that "everything else" could be attributed to Marciano's losing some of the enthusiasm he had for boxing at that time. That showed up previous to the ****ell fight especially where Marciano voiced many concerns about how he "couldn't get up for this fight" and things of that nature.


"The family had nothing to do with it. Rocky was burned up about the ten thousand dollars from the ****ell fight. He and Weill had split up almost half a million from the Moore fight, and Rocky had worked a deal to have the money spread out over three years. Then he heard Weill had scalped thousands of dollars in tickets on the Moore fight. Rocky wanted his cut, but Weill wouldn't give him anything. He was bull****. He figured with all that dough spread over three years, with the taxes he'd be fighting for nothing." - Mike Piccento


The $10,000 Piccento spoke of was investigated by the California Boxing Commission who found out that Weill did indeed have a shady side deal going on that enabled him to skim that ten grand off the top of the profits.

As far as Patterson goes, he wasn't even a rated heavyweight contender by Ring ****zine or the NBA at the time of Marciano's announcement;

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+ratings&hl=en

The NBA listed no logical contender to the title. Jackson, Baker and Valdes, in that order, as "outstanding heavies". Holman, Summerlin, Pastrano, Cavicchi, Carter and Satterfield were listed in the "honorable mention" category. Moore was listed only as a light heavyweight in the NBA's ratings.

The following is a copy & paste job from an old post of mine on another site that might suggest what the heavyweight scene looked like at that time;


Here's an old Ring ****zine (Feb of 1956) article on that Baker/Valdes "fight" as written by Joe Smith;

"Had it been billed as just another heavyweight bout, Bob Baker and Nino Valdes might have turned in a real battle in Cleveland. But the mistake was in advertising the winner as Rocky Marciano's next opponent in a world championship bout. That must have scared off both rivals. Neither apparently wanted to be Marciano's next victim. So, instead of fighting to win, Bob and Nino acted as though they were doing their utmost to lose and get eliminated. Valdes was the more successful. He managed to lose. But Baker, in winning, also did a good job of eliminating himself as a prospective Marciano opponent. It was a dull, uninspired, drab, no-account affair which bored the 8,380 onlookers to distraction and evoked catcalls and other derisive noises.

The dreary affair vindicated Marciano and Jim Norris, both of whom had said that Archie Moore, despite his knockout by Marciano last September, stood out well beyond any other contender for the 1956 engagement with the champion.

As a consequence, it may be regarded as virtually certain that Moore will get his return bout with Marciano.

It is my impression that Marciano could beat Moore any time they get together. But the ring has had its startling surprises in the past, and Archie may have one hidden in his gloves when next he encounters the champion.

Baker's decision over Valdes was his second against the Cuban. Bob had taken Nino at Huntington, West Va. on May 21, 1953.

How, with so rich a prize at stake, Baker and Valdes could have produced so horrible a bout in Cleveland is beyond all conception and calculation.

They didn't punch, they pushed gloves at each other with incredible imperturbability in so far as the Marciano match and the reaction of the crowd were concerned. Two pals in one stable could not have been more unaggressive and more solicitous of each other's welfare.

The fact is that it was a bad match. The Baker and Valdes styles did not dovetail as they should have fitted for a good fight.

In addition, it may have been that Baker and Valdes were too conscious of the importance of their elimination fight, and refused to take big chances. They forgot Moore.

No matter what the reasons, Baker and Valdes defeated the primary purpose of their meeting, and thoroughly bilked those who had paid $63,392 to see the card.

If there was any consolation for the disappointed patrons, it derived from the fact that their money, minus $25,000 for the fighters, went into the Cleveland News Christmas Fund, a worthy local charity.

Baker weighed 213 1/2 pounds and Valdes 207. Nino's early knockout of Don ****ell in London last September had lifted him to a prominent spot. But he blew all the benefits which had accrued from that victory. In fact, the Cuban blew himself right into limbo.

The failure of the main event to arouse the onlookers to anything but derision played up the semi final, in which Eduardo Lausse, Argentine middleweight, scored his thirtieth consecutive victory. He stopped England's John L. Sullivan after one minute of action in the fifth round. Referee Lou Parker intervened, with Sullivan totally unable to defend himself.

Orlando Zulueta, Cuban lightweight, got a unanimous eight round decision over Walter Brown, of Baltimore, and Gasper Ortega, New York middleweight, outpointed Tony Gonzales of East Orange, N.J. in a six rounder."

Most informative..I also read that Marciano had trouble tying his shoe laces, his back was so bad. A look at Rings top 10 during that time reveals that there was also not much motivation from his side to continue may be ( my guess).He had beaten everyone and the others he could beat. Patterson was not ranked back then (in the top 10 when Rocky retired)

[Daddy T]

Rocky would have flatened floyd ... but he was lucky he didn't meet the up and coming sonny liston

[fitefanSHO]

I see Rocky KO1 Patterson.

And then Floyd hiding behind a wig and fake beard for a month.

[The Surgeon]

With Floyd in a twitching heap.......

Seriously i think Rocky KO's any version of Patterson who is a better fighter than given credit for recently, At his best i could actually see Patterson scoring an early KD but ultimately the stronger more persistant, harder hitting and tougher Marciano is breaking him down and getting him outta there