1 Billion: Kid Cocoa, the greatest "Journeyman" of all time?

[IronDanHamza]

Chalky Wright actually lost an MD to Cocoa kid

I did highlight that Cocoa beat Wright. Which add's to the fact I think Cocoa is much greater than Wright.

Strangely enough, Wright is in the HOF as opposed to Cocoa.

But anyway, the criteria for the greatest 'journeyman' includes them not being in the HOF

Tiger Jones also fits the bill with much less fights than others mentioned though.

That is another fine choice Ruben, and this may be the winner.

Tiger Jones isn't in the HOF I believe.

Tiger Jones beat that stand out are; Robinson, Giardello and Gavilan which is very impressive. He also has a list of other solid wins.

All of those are good wins regardless to the stage of their career they're in.

His loss's to great such as Olson, Papp, Gavilan x2, Fulmer x2 and Giardello.

Tiger Jones incredibly, has a winning record over Ray Robinson. Some feat.

The question is; Does this equal or even better Cocoa's accomplishments and loss's?

What you think?

Does having a winning record over Robinson surpass beating Williams 8 times? I personally don't think so.

Obviously Gavilan & Giardello >> Booker.

[RubenSonny]

I did highlight that Cocoa beat Wright. Which add's to the fact I think Cocoa is much greater than Wright.

Strangely enough, Wright is in the HOF as opposed to Cocoa.

But anyway, the criteria for the greatest 'journeyman' includes them not being in the HOF




That is another fine choice Ruben, and this may be the winner.

Tiger Jones isn't in the HOF I believe.

Tiger Jones beat that stand out are; Robinson, Giardello and Gavilan which is very impressive. He also has a list of other solid wins.

All of those are good wins regardless to the stage of their career they're in.

His loss's to great such as Olson, Papp, Gavilan x2, Fulmer x2 and Giardello.

Tiger Jones incredibly, has a winning record over Ray Robinson. Some feat.

The question is; Does this equal or even better Cocoa's accomplishments and loss's?

What you think?

Does having a winning record over Robinson surpass beating Williams 8 times? I personally don't think so.

Obviously Gavilan & Giardello >> Booker.

I dunno its very tough, Robinson was obviously rusty from inactivity and considered on the slide before the hiatus, while he did go on to do great things, part of the reason they are great was because Ray was so past-it at the time. Though Jones was coming off 5 straight losses, they were all competitive decisions I doubt they had any serious affect on him, the activity is obvious a plus. It wasn't considered a huge shock when Ray lost. Jones also has a notable win over Gavilan (someone I personally rate very highly) but he was clearly past-it at that point and retired shortly after. Very good win over Joey G obviously. Jones was undoubtedly as tough as they come but I think I'm going to give it to Cocoa Kid who has multiple wins over a prime ATG and solid wins over Booker, Nolan and Leto. Just my opinion though....

[IronDanHamza]

I dunno its very tough, Robinson was obviously rusty from inactivity and considered on the slide before the hiatus, while he did go on to do great things, part of the reason they are great was because Ray was so past-it at the time. Though Jones was coming off 5 straight losses, they were all competitive decisions I doubt they had any serious affect on him, the activity is obvious a plus. It wasn't considered a huge shock when Ray lost. Jones also has a notable win over Gavilan (someone I personally rate very highly) but he was clearly past-it at that point and retired shortly after. Very good win over Joey G obviously. Jones was undoubtedly as tough as they come but I think I'm going to give it to Cocoa Kid who has multiple wins over a prime ATG and solid wins over Booker, Nolan and Leto. Just my opinion though....

Good points.

I still think the Gavilan win is a good win and Robinson is a good win regalrdless a past prime Robinson is still great.

But as I said in my post, it doesn't equal beating Holman Williams 8 times for me.

I find it doubtful that anyone is going to find an example of someone who isn't in the HOF and meet's the 'journeyman' demand which a resume and achievement as strong as Kid Cocoa.

9 wins over great fighters, can't see it.

Which is why I posed the question.

[McGoorty]

I did highlight that Cocoa beat Wright. Which add's to the fact I think Cocoa is much greater than Wright.

Strangely enough, Wright is in the HOF as opposed to Cocoa.

But anyway, the criteria for the greatest 'journeyman' includes them not being in the HOF




That is another fine choice Ruben, and this may be the winner.

Tiger Jones isn't in the HOF I believe.

Tiger Jones beat that stand out are; Robinson, Giardello and Gavilan which is very impressive. He also has a list of other solid wins.

All of those are good wins regardless to the stage of their career they're in.

His loss's to great such as Olson, Papp, Gavilan x2, Fulmer x2 and Giardello.

Tiger Jones incredibly, has a winning record over Ray Robinson. Some feat.

The question is; Does this equal or even better Cocoa's accomplishments and loss's?

What you think?

Does having a winning record over Robinson surpass beating Williams 8 times? I personally don't think so.

Obviously Gavilan & Giardello >> Booker.

Thought provoking Thread isn't it !!!, I have to look Cocoa (and Wright) up, the "8" is an amazing stat. It sound's to me as if Cocoa Kid was a guy who struggled with various styles and sometimes he met opponents whose style he fitted perfectly, obviously Holman, and also, his way of fighting "Spoiled" guys like HW and made them look bad (were there any stoppages ?). It's the only explanation. -------- BUT 8 ( "EIGHT" ),.... Damn.

[IronDanHamza]

Thought provoking Thread isn't it !!!, I have to look Cocoa (and Wright) up, the "8" is an amazing stat. It sound's to me as if Cocoa Kid was a guy who struggled with various styles and sometimes he met opponents whose style he fitted perfectly, obviously Holman, and also, his way of fighting "Spoiled" guys like HW and made them look bad (were there any stoppages ?). It's the only explanation. -------- BUT 8 ( "EIGHT" ),.... Damn.

No, I think they all went to a descion.

I think it's just a case of Cocoa having his number. And having Holman Williams' number is a great thing to have

Cocoa was stopped less than 10 times in his close to 60 loss's, which is another fantasitic feat.

He is one hell of an interesting fighter.

[GJC]

Accross 13 fights with Holman Williams, "Journeyman" Kid Cocoa, managed to beat him 8 times, yes, 8 times. Losing 3 times and drawing twice. Kid Cocoa, with almost 60 loss's managed to go 8-3-2 with a great fighter in Holman Williams.

Question is; How is that even possible? This is one thing that has confused me more than ever.

A fighter deals back to back loss's with Frankie Britt and manages to beat Holman Williams 8 times. Incredible.

Think Ruben hit the nail on the head, he had Williams number.
See it an awful lot really Greb v Loughran, Charles v Moore, Moore v Johnson etc etc. Better man won but given the stature of the losing fighters i'd always expect the numerical head to head to be a bit closer.

[IronDanHamza]

Think Ruben hit the nail on the head, he had Williams number.
See it an awful lot really Greb v Loughran, Charles v Moore, Moore v Johnson etc etc. Better man won but given the stature of the losing fighters i'd always expect the numerical head to head to be a bit closer.

Argh, don't remind me.

Harold was so unlucky on one of those bouts (I forget which one it was)

But I like Archie Moore alot and he WON fair and sqaure despite the bad 'luck' per se Johnson got in that fight.

The Willie Pastrano fight, however, I can NOT forgive. De****able.

But I'm going off topic here

I did touch on the fact that Cocoa just had Williams' number. But, to me, I don't know about you, but this particular 'number' is so much more intruiging than the Greb-Loughran and Charles-Moore situations etc

Cocoa was a good fighter, a very good fighter even. Anyone who has the capability to beat Eddie Booker and Chalkey Wright and even draw with Chalrey Burley is a very good fighter regarldess, but, had they never met up for whatever reason, would ANYONE agree that Cocoa Kid would be able to beat Holman Williams 8 times???! No chance. Probably at the most 2-3 times in a 10 fight series.

I just find the situation so intriguing.

[GJC]

Argh, don't remind me.

Harold was so unlucky on one of those bouts (I forget which one it was)

But I like Archie Moore alot and he WON fair and sqaure despite the bad 'luck' per se Johnson got in that fight.

The Willie Pastrano fight, however, I can NOT forgive. De****able.

But I'm going off topic here

I did touch on the fact that Cocoa just had Williams' number. But, to me, I don't know about you, but this particular 'number' is so much more intruiging than the Greb-Loughran and Charles-Moore situations etc

Cocoa was a good fighter, a very good fighter even. Anyone who has the capability to beat Eddie Booker and Chalkey Wright and even draw with Chalrey Burley is a very good fighter regarldess, but, had they never met up for whatever reason, would ANYONE agree that Cocoa Kid would be able to beat Holman Williams 8 times???! No chance. Probably at the most 2-3 times in a 10 fight series.

I just find the situation so intriguing.

No I'll give you that. Greb v Loughran I guess you'd favour Greb but maybe be suprised that Greb had so much success against a fighter of Loughran's class. Always surprises me that Loughran is universally rated over Greb at light heavy. Ok you have to look at the career at the weight as a whole but Greb's at light heavy wasn't exactly shabby! Anyhow back on topic I would have lost a fortune on the Cocoa Kid v Williams series using my "obviously that was a one off let's double up the bet this time"!

[slakka]

I planned on including the draw with Burley but it slipped my mind as I was writing.

I chose not to include those wins which are solid wins and wanted to focus on the greats that beat him and the greats that he beat.

Do you think there is a more accomplished 'journeyman' that Cocoa? I don't.

Amazing that a guy who beat Eddie Booker and Holman Williams 8 times has almost 60 loss's. Astonishing.

I also heard a rumour once that he dropped Robinson in sparring. However, I find that highly unlikely.

Robinson, who meets Steve Belloise in a non-title fight at Yankee Stadium next Wednesday, went down after a right to the jaw by his spar mate, the Cocoa Kid ...

[McGoorty]

I have inverted comma's above the term 'Journeyman' for good reason. In today's game, a fighter with 10+ loss's is usually considered a journeyman. Especially if they have 10+ loss's in their best years.

Kid Cocoa, retired with almost 60, yes sixty loss's. Losing to great, average and poor fighters across that long list of loss's.

Amongst those list of loss's are the names; Archie Moore, Charley Burley, Holman Williams x2, Kid Azteca x4, Battling Battalino and Lou Ambers.

Obviously, those 10 undertandable loss's jump at you amongst the close to 60 and show you the man was willing to fight anybody and everybody.

The more concerning loss's are the stacked one's to the likes of Harry Alexanian, Tony Martin, Frankie Britt, Harry Carlton and Andre Jessurun as well as many many others.

The most confusing part of it is; is amongst all the great, average and frankly poor fighters Kid Cocoa lost to, his series with HOF'er Holman Williams is possibly the most intruiging series I have ever layed my eyes on.

Accross 13 fights with Holman Williams, "Journeyman" Kid Cocoa, managed to beat him 8 times, yes, 8 times. Losing 3 times and drawing twice. Kid Cocoa, with almost 60 loss's managed to go 8-3-2 with a great fighter in Holman Williams.

Question is; How is that even possible? This is one thing that has confused me more than ever.

A fighter deals back to back loss's with Frankie Britt and manages to beat Holman Williams 8 times. Incredible.

Ontop of that his only other great win is a win over Eddie Booker. Which in it's own right is an exceptional achievement. But is obviously dwarfed by the drastic accomplishment of beating Williams 8 times. (!)

Other details about Kid Cocoa are he allegedly sparred with Kid Chocolate in his early years and sparred with Sugar Ray Robinson in his late years.

So he shared a ring with; Williams, Booker, Battalino, Ambers, Burley, Moore, Chocolate and Sugar Ray Robinson. That is one "Journeyman" I wouldn't have liked to cross paths with!

The question is; Is there another "Journeyman" as accomplished and has a resume with;

1. The quality of loss's that he has (Who he lost to)

2. Resume of actual wins (!)

Compared to Kid Cocoa?


I honestly, don't think so.


*Edit - The fighter you make your argument for to be a more accomplished 'journeyman' than Cocoa can not be in the HOF.

One of Cocoa's opponents was Kid Azteca who has a similar record. Maybe three quarters of his fights were in Mexico against his own countrymen. Azteca had a few wins against big names but was usually on the receiving end. Azteca had well over a hundred fights, a tough customer for sure. His resume is not bad at first glance but there are a lot of unimpressive parts when you look into it, question is where do you guys rate Kid Azteca ??/ /............Is he like Cocoa ?.