1 Billion:I think Joe Louis would have beaten Muhammad Ali

[StarshipTrooper]

Poet I also believe that while trying to play with his opponenets head Ali often went over the line. The hatred that Frazier feels for Ali today is not totally unjust.

"Truth is, I'd like to rumble with that sucker again—beat him up piece by piece and mail him back to Jesus.... Now people ask me if I feel bad for him, now that things aren't going so well for him. Nope. I don't. Fact is, I don't give a damn. They want me to love him, but I'll open up the graveyard and bury his ass when the Lord chooses to take him."---Joe Frazier.

And THAT is why I dislike Ali on a personal level. I just don't let my personal antipathy for him color my perception of him as a fighter. I can't stand Ray Leonard either.....but he was still an incredible fighter even if he was a pr1ck.

Poet

[kendom]

A lot of the time I say it's impossible to say who'd win, so I declare it a draw. But Ali before his exile was just so quick, had incredible feet, I think Joe would struggle to take him down and I think Ali would win in points. Plus when Ali was 27-28, and 29 (29 if he never got stopped boxing, he was 29 when he fought Quarry but coming back after exile) would have been at his peak, and we never saw that. On the other hand, Joe was 3 months shy of 28 before he got called in WW2.

I'm of the opinion if Ali wasn't banned, he would have beat Joe's 25 title defence's record, but then again Joe was stopped boxing just before he was 28.

I dont agree, Alis era was too competitive to go 25 defences, I think that he would have ran into Frazier and lost, I think that whatever version of Ali fought Frazier, if they fought 3 times Frazier would at least have one victory.

[Greatest1942]

And THAT is why I dislike Ali on a personal level. I just don't let my personal antipathy for him color my perception of him as a fighter. I can't stand Ray Leonard either.....but he was still an incredible fighter even if he was a pr1ck.

Poet

I on the contrary have no dislike for ALI...BUT how ever I do think he would have got beat by LOuis...doesnt matter both greats as I said earlier.

[StarshipTrooper]

I on the contrary have no dislike for ALI...BUT how ever I do think he would have got beat by LOuis...doesnt matter both greats as I said earlier.

Conversly, I'm VERY fond of Floyd Patterson.....I just don't think he was good enough at Heavyweight to be considered ATG calibre. A very good fighter, a near-great if you will, just not good enough to be placed with the elites of the division. Now if he just stayed at Light-Heavy.....

Poet

[them_apples]

This kind of logic is fun.

Ali himself was caught with big punches often...In his prime and more so when past his prime.
Sonny Banks, Cooper, Frazier all dropped him. He was caught with some big punches against Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him...

Why can't Louis who was a far better puncher than all of the above beat him to a lopsided decision..
This is my counter arguement.

"Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him..." yeah but they didn't drop him, he was tough as nails. Don't know why you even brought this up. Oscar bonevena was a huge puncher, it's just testament to how tough Ali was. I can say the same about Foreman and Shavers hitting him as to why could Louis hurt him. I know skill has a lot to do with it, Louis would eat him up on the inside, but after watching the Frazier fights - I don't see Louis having the tools to get inside. Ali had lost his legs in his comeback and even then an ATG pressure fighter like Frazier had the hardest time getting inside.

Fact is, Ali has a lot more tools that could give Louis tons of problems. Louis is slow of foot (as seen in the Walcott fight how movement screwed with his plan) Louis has a low left hand and no head movement, Ali has probably the cleanest right hand in HW history. On top of that, Ali dwarfs him, and Louis wouldn't close the distance quick enough to negate this. Ali has an 80 reach.

Why couldn't Louis do what Frazier did? well for one, watch Ali in the Williams fight, he basically weighs the same as in the first Frazier fight, only he's jumping around the ring without getting fatigued. That's his prime. Louis fights nothing like Frazier. Frazier's gameplan was to get inside, and he was good at it. Moving his head continuously as well as having a very fast left hand. Louis isn't going to do what Frazier did. No he will do what Foreman did, coming forward, stalking his opponent like he did in all 25 title defenses. Louis only chance is to get a KO. and sorry, Ali isn't going to get sparked by one punch in the championship rounds like Walcott did.

[them_apples]

Conversly, I'm VERY fond of Floyd Patterson.....I just don't think he was good enough at Heavyweight to be considered ATG calibre. A very good fighter, a near-great if you will, just not good enough to be placed with the elites of the division. Now if he just stayed at Light-Heavy.....

Poet

Patterson vs Foster

[StarshipTrooper]

Patterson vs Foster

I'd favor Patterson Both had terrific left-hooks and both had questionable chins (at least at Heavyweight).....My bet is Floyd with his faster hands gets his hook in first

Poet

[Greatest1942]

"Oscar...Norton broke his jaw...Leon Spinks beat him..." yeah but they didn't drop him, he was tough as nails. Don't know why you even brought this up. Oscar bonevena was a huge puncher, it's just testament to how tough Ali was. I can say the same about Foreman and Shavers hitting him as to why could Louis hurt him. I know skill has a lot to do with it, Louis would eat him up on the inside, but after watching the Frazier fights - I don't see Louis having the tools to get inside. Ali had lost his legs in his comeback and even then an ATG pressure fighter like Frazier had the hardest time getting inside.

Fact is, Ali has a lot more tools that could give Louis tons of problems. Louis is slow of foot (as seen in the Walcott fight how movement screwed with his plan) Louis has a low left hand and no head movement, Ali has probably the cleanest right hand in HW history. On top of that, Ali dwarfs him, and Louis wouldn't close the distance quick enough to negate this. Ali has an 80 reach.

Why couldn't Louis do what Frazier did? well for one, watch Ali in the Williams fight, he basically weighs the same as in the first Frazier fight, only he's jumping around the ring without getting fatigued. That's his prime. Louis fights nothing like Frazier. Frazier's gameplan was to get inside, and he was good at it. Moving his head continuously as well as having a very fast left hand. Louis isn't going to do what Frazier did. No he will do what Foreman did, coming forward, stalking his opponent like he did in all 25 title defenses. Louis only chance is to get a KO. and sorry, Ali isn't going to get sparked by one punch in the championship rounds like Walcott did.

Have you heard of Max baer? He did not drop Louis either. And you speak of Oscar ...yea he was a huge puncher...right...but was Sonny Banks so? Was henry Cooper so? Baer was a harder puncher than Oscar, Sonny Banks or the legendary Cooper.

Louis was not slow of foot...see Buddy Baer Louis 2 fight...he fought that way. You bring up Walcott time and again, but that was clearly a over weight Louis in his last fight. See Ali in his wars with Leon Spinks ...check Spinks record. If Spinks can give Ali trouble at that stage Walcott would give him hell. Foreman and Louis are completely different fighters...This is alarming...what you are saying. Foreman was never even remotely like Louis...LOuis did have good head movement and upper body reflexes. See some of his videos with unbiased eyes. Frazier never parried , forget Foreman to whom it must be like rocket science. Louis did. Foreman did not have the jab of LOuis. Frazier did not have the right hand of Louis.

You bring up the Williams fight....Oh great example..really great..so thats his prime right beating a guy who was shot in the belly lost part of his intestines and could hardly move well. I REPEAT ONLY A BIASED ALI WORSHIPPER WILL SAY THAT THIS IS WILLIAMS THAT LISTON BEAT.

I WILL MAKE THIS CLEAR TOO YOU...forget Frazier who was an ATG even the medicore George Chuvalo got inside and made Ali piss blood. Either your god has a delicate body or George did really get inside you know.

Yes I am not sure Louis will beta Ali. Neither are you...Just saying these things will not convince me, you will convince some Ali fanatics and yourself.

[check hook]

Joe Louis and Muhammad Ali are inarguably two of the greatest heavyweights of all time. In a match up I think that Joe Louis would come out the victor, he had trouble with quick moving fighters, however Conn was 170 lbs Ali was 212 lbs around his prime a much bigger target and Conn was also a much more correct boxer (fundamentally) and didnt make the costly mistakes Ali made such as never learning how to block a jab or being prone to left hooks and good jabbers, Frazier mapped out Louis plan to beat Ali in 1971, for that reason I think that Louis would have beaten him head to head.

I love Joe Louis, but i'm not so certain. He was much better against aggressive fighters who liked to come forward. Ali would be bouncing around and fighting him moving backwards. I don't see Louis winning this one, Ali would get on his bike and jab to a win.

[Miburo]

Prime Ali is a terrible match-up for Louis. As long as he stays mobile I think he boxes his way to a decision. Prime Louis vs. the older, comeback Ali is a more interesting fight.