The brutal power of Earnie Shavers.

[JAB5239]

This post is directed at both Poet and JUGGERNAUT....Im tired of having to babysit and delete post after post of flaming, baiting and insulting posts in what was a good thread. If it persists I have no problem losing either of you. Usually I send these messages in private, but I think everyone needs to know I am not going to play favorites and that I am serious. If you guys want to insult each other like children than take it to the thunderdome.

[nomadman]

I like Shavers, but his one punch power is rather overrated and based more on testimony than on actual video evidence. Not that I'm dismissing what Holmes, Ali et al said, but the fact remains that they not only withstood his best shots, but went on to beat him. His cleanest high profile knockout remains the uppercut he hit Ellis with; most of his other knockouts came from accumulation damage or TKOs where he caught and hurt an opponent and followed up with a barrage of shots that ended the fight. A large number of his "KO" vids contain knockdowns of fighters who went on to beat him (Lyle, Holmes, Tillis) which is odd considering the wealth of brutal stoppages that a man with Shavers's reputation must have had. Heavy handed guy though, and anyone who can rock Ali and put down Holmes and Lyle (albeit temporarily) deserves respect. I just don't think he's the devastating puncher he's made out to be.

[StarshipTrooper]

I like Shavers, but his one punch power is rather overrated and based more on testimony than on actual video evidence. Not that I'm dismissing what Holmes, Ali et al said, but the fact remains that they not only withstood his best shots, but went on to beat him. His cleanest high profile knockout remains the uppercut he hit Ellis with; most of his other knockouts came from accumulation damage or TKOs where he caught and hurt an opponent and followed up with a barrage of shots that ended the fight. A large number of his "KO" vids contain knockdowns of fighters who went on to beat him (Lyle, Holmes, Tillis) which is odd considering the wealth of brutal stoppages that a man with Shavers's reputation must have had. Heavy handed guy though, and anyone who can rock Ali and put down Holmes and Lyle (albeit temporarily) deserves respect. I just don't think he's the devastating puncher he's made out to be.

And Lennox couldn't KO Tua or Holyfield but I doubt it would lead you to question his power. Point is, a great chin beats a great punch.....there's no way Shavers was KOing Ali or Holmes given their chins, just as there was no way Lennox was KOing Tua or Holyfield given theirs. The truth is, against his better opponents, it was Shavers deficiencies in other areas that got him beat by guys like Lyle and Quarry. A one-dimensional power merchant (ask Tua about this) generally loses to his top opposition because those fighters are able to avoid their power and do their own damage. If anything is overrated it's punching power in general as a major trait for fighters: There's just too many other traits that are more important (like chin).

Poet

[Forza]

I like Shavers, but his one punch power is rather overrated and based more on testimony than on actual video evidence. Not that I'm dismissing what Holmes, Ali et al said, but the fact remains that they not only withstood his best shots, but went on to beat him. His cleanest high profile knockout remains the uppercut he hit Ellis with; most of his other knockouts came from accumulation damage or TKOs where he caught and hurt an opponent and followed up with a barrage of shots that ended the fight. A large number of his "KO" vids contain knockdowns of fighters who went on to beat him (Lyle, Holmes, Tillis) which is odd considering the wealth of brutal stoppages that a man with Shavers's reputation must have had. Heavy handed guy though, and anyone who can rock Ali and put down Holmes and Lyle (albeit temporarily) deserves respect. I just don't think he's the devastating puncher he's made out to be.

Agreed. Where are all the 1 punch knock outs? The guy was nothing special. Of course ali and holmes said he hits hard, he gave them both a tough fight. Both ali and holmes make up things on the go and change their mind everyday.

[nomadman]

And Lennox couldn't KO Tua or Holyfield but I doubt it would lead you to question his power. Point is, a great chin beats a great punch.....there's no way Shavers was KOing Ali or Holmes given their chins, just as there was no way Lennox was KOing Tua or Holyfield given theirs. The truth is, against his better opponents, it was Shavers deficiencies in other areas that got him beat by guys like Lyle and Quarry. A one-dimensional power merchant (ask Tua about this) generally loses to his top opposition because those fighters are able to avoid their power and do their own damage. If anything is overrated it's punching power in general as a major trait for fighters: There's just too many other traits that are more important (like chin).

I'm not arguing that Lennox was the hardest puncher ever, but he does have the sort of wealth of brutal knockouts which, IMO, Shavers is lacking given the fearsome reputation he's ascribed. Compare the Rahman KO with the Ellis KO. Which is the more impressive? Compare the Tyson KO to the Bugner stoppage or the blowout of Golota where Golota's eyes were reeling in their sockets to the impressive but not superhuman stoppage of Norton. Again, which were the more impressive? Shavers's power was way above average, no doubt, but nothing that I've seen of him on tape leads me to believe that he was one of the hardest punchers to ever lace them up.

Regarding the Holyfield and Tua fights, sure their chins no doubt helped them survive to the end, but a number of other factors were involved that can't simply be put down to their superior resilience. Firstly, one has to take into account that Lennox wasn't just a one dimensional knockout artist. He would explode with punches if he saw an opening, but he would also be content to sit back and use his superior reach and jab to outbox you if he saw fit. He did that for large stretches against a number of opponents, including Holy and Tua, and in Holy's case his agressive combination attacks further nullified Lennox's aggression. Secondly, especially against Tua, Lennox was extremely wary of engaging too much for fear of catching a sleeper. Had Tua not posed the danger he did he would have been little more than a punching bag, and I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen Lennox finish him.

With Shavers it's a lot simpler, for the fact that he was, by and large, a pretty one dimensional knockout artist. The options of boxing and taking it into the later rounds didn't really exist for him, due both to the crudity of his technique, and his iffy stamina. It was all out or nothing, and the general pattern of his fights esentially boiled down to, "can you withstand my barrage of punches or not?" A surprisingly large number of fighters could, which again has to call into question his ATG power rep, at least against other similar fighters like Tua. Were Lennox to adopt a similar strategy he might have had a lot more early round knockouts, but he would also have probably had a lot more losses. It was a gamble he wasn't prepared to pay.

[nomadman]

And Lennox couldn't KO Tua or Holyfield but I doubt it would lead you to question his power. Point is, a great chin beats a great punch.....there's no way Shavers was KOing Ali or Holmes given their chins, just as there was no way Lennox was KOing Tua or Holyfield given theirs. The truth is, against his better opponents, it was Shavers deficiencies in other areas that got him beat by guys like Lyle and Quarry. A one-dimensional power merchant (ask Tua about this) generally loses to his top opposition because those fighters are able to avoid their power and do their own damage. If anything is overrated it's punching power in general as a major trait for fighters: There's just too many other traits that are more important (like chin).

Just to address this point separately: I don't think any one physical trait can be said to be categorically above another; it all depends on secondary traits and the style of the fighter you're fighting. But given the choice between just power and chin I'd pick power. No one is immune to the knockout, and sooner or later even the best chins crack (there's also the issue of PD, but we'll leave that to the side for the moment).

[RubenSonny]

I like Shavers, but his one punch power is rather overrated and based more on testimony than on actual video evidence. Not that I'm dismissing what Holmes, Ali et al said, but the fact remains that they not only withstood his best shots, but went on to beat him. His cleanest high profile knockout remains the uppercut he hit Ellis with; most of his other knockouts came from accumulation damage or TKOs where he caught and hurt an opponent and followed up with a barrage of shots that ended the fight. A large number of his "KO" vids contain knockdowns of fighters who went on to beat him (Lyle, Holmes, Tillis) which is odd considering the wealth of brutal stoppages that a man with Shavers's reputation must have had. Heavy handed guy though, and anyone who can rock Ali and put down Holmes and Lyle (albeit temporarily) deserves respect. I just don't think he's the devastating puncher he's made out to be.

this ****ing clown, the same guy who was claiming Samuel Peter to be some massive puncher.

[BattlingNelson]

this ****ing clown, the same guy who was claiming Samuel Peter to be some massive puncher.

Go for the subject and not the man please. He presented a fair argument for his opinion. There are other places where you can flame.

[RubenSonny]

Go for the subject and not the man please. He presented a fair argument for his opinion. There are other places where you can flame.

Fair enough, poor showing on my part.

[Daddy T]

Shavers had great power but he was NOT a great fighter. I guess his best win was against Norton who went down like a sack of spuds against heavy handed fighters but even guys like Ron Lyle and Jerry Quarry and a well past it Ali had too much for him. His power is undeniable, he put down and hurt some top guys like holmes ... but he didn't beat them. How many on that impressive KO record were bums? How many were real top guys ...