The brutal power of Earnie Shavers.

[GF of Boxing]

I have to give what Ali, Holmes, Norton, and Lyle said about Shavers's power some credibility. Just look at all the punchers they have faced in their careers. Especially Ali. Ali been in the ring with Liston, Bonavena, Williams, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, Chuvalo, and Shavers. Those are some very notable punchers. And if Ali said (who I believe had one of the greatest chins in boxing History) that Earnie is the hardest puncher he ever faced, then to me thats saying something.

[StarshipTrooper]

Shavers had great power but he was NOT a great fighter. I guess his best win was against Norton who went down like a sack of spuds against heavy handed fighters but even guys like Ron Lyle and Jerry Quarry and a well past it Ali had too much for him. His power is undeniable, he put down and hurt some top guys like holmes ... but he didn't beat them. How many on that impressive KO record were bums? How many were real top guys ...

And that's the whole point: Shavers wasn't a great fighter and great power won't make you one. Power alone isn't going to beat top competition outside of a fluke.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Just to address this point separately: I don't think any one physical trait can be said to be categorically above another; it all depends on secondary traits and the style of the fighter you're fighting. But given the choice between just power and chin I'd pick power. No one is immune to the knockout, and sooner or later even the best chins crack (there's also the issue of PD, but we'll leave that to the side for the moment).

That's just it: The best chins don't crack bottom line. You can get stopped by the ref for taking too many punches, stopped on cuts, stopped by an injury, retire in your corner.....no one is immune from THOSE kind of KOs but in those cases the power/chin contest isn't the issue. Watch Hagler walk right through Hearns' best shots, watch Ali take the best of Liston and Foreman (yes both landed on the button a few times) without cracking. Hell, see if you can dig up LaMotta Vs. Satterfield. They've had these matchups throughout boxing history where a fighter with a great chin and no punch was matched up with a fighter with a glass jaw and a big punch: Guess who wins the vast majority of the time? The chin.

Truth be told, you could cut Lennox's power in half and he'd still be a damn good fighter; you double his power and it wouldn't make him much better than he already was. Give him Lennox a chin and he jumps 5 spots on my all-time list (and I suspect a number of others' lists as well).

Fight fans in general are too damn obsessed with power. I know it stems from the fact that punchers are entertaining but entertaining doesn't mean squat when it comes down to the brass tacks of who's a great fighter and who isn't. Who wins and who loses.

Poet

[nomadman]

I have to give what Ali, Holmes, Norton, and Lyle said about Shavers's power some credibility. Just look at all the punchers they have faced in their careers. Especially Ali. Ali been in the ring with Liston, Bonavena, Williams, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, Chuvalo, and Shavers. Those are some very notable punchers. And if Ali said (who I believe had one of the greatest chins in boxing History) that Earnie is the hardest puncher he ever faced, then to me thats saying something.

Of course this has to factor into the argument, but IMO people put too much stock into what fighters say and don't pay enough attention to what actually went on in the fight. Briggs said that Vitali hit harder than Foreman and Lennox, Botha said that Mighty Mo (a kickboxer) hit harder than Tyson. In both cases I find their claims hard to believe. Do I think they're lying? Not necessarily, but in the case of Briggs, Big Vit was hitting him with flush shots all night and didn't put him down once. Lennox stopped him. How does that work?

With Shavers you have such a large number of fighters saying similar things about his power, which lends more weight to the claim, but the fact still remains that Ali, Holmes, Lyle, Tillis and Cobb all survived his best shots and went on to beat him. And in Norton's case I'd wager good money that Cooney hit him a darn sight harder than Shavers did. He certainly had him in a much worse state and did so with fewer punches. I don't doubt that Shavers hit them all pretty damn hard for them to say such things about him in the first place, but I simply can't square their words with the evidence of my own eyes. Expecially in Holmes's case, Tyson dropped him with an almost identical shot to the one that put him down against Shavers. The difference was that Tyson went on to get the stoppage where Shavers did not (and for anyone that wants to bring up Larry's age here, bear in mind that this was the only time he was ever stopped, and that he went on to fight at a high level for another decade more).

I'll always bear in mind what fighters have to say about another fighter's power and take it into consideration when forming my opinion. But I'll never let it be the sole decider. And without the quotes I find that Shavers really doesn't have a strong enough body of stoppages to convince me that he was one of the hardest punchers of all time. Though I do admit that he has a ton of really exciting knockouts.

[nomadman]

That's just it: The best chins don't crack bottom line. You can get stopped by the ref for taking too many punches, stopped on cuts, stopped by an injury, retire in your corner.....no one is immune from THOSE kind of KOs but in those cases the power/chin contest isn't the issue. Watch Hagler walk right through Hearns' best shots, watch Ali take the best of Liston and Foreman (yes both landed on the button a few times) without cracking. Hell, see if you can dig up LaMotta Vs. Satterfield. They've had these matchups throughout boxing history where a fighter with a great chin and no punch was matched up with a fighter with a glass jaw and a big punch: Guess who wins the vast majority of the time? The chin.

Truth be told, you could cut Lennox's power in half and he'd still be a damn good fighter; you double his power and it wouldn't make him much better than he already was. Give him Lennox a chin and he jumps 5 spots on my all-time list (and I suspect a number of others' lists as well).

Fight fans in general are too damn obsessed with power. I know it stems from the fact that punchers are entertaining but entertaining doesn't mean squat when it comes down to the brass tacks of who's a great fighter and who isn't. Who wins and who loses.

I have to disagree with the idea that chins can't crack. I've just seen too many instances of guys people thought were KO proof getting stopped later on in their careers because they absorbed too much punishment early on. Of course the "cracking point" is different for each fighter, and some fighters retire before it's reached. Others find subtle ways to negate the power as they go on. But look at a guy like Andrade who absorbed sickening punishment against Kessler. I don't think there's a better example of a fighter who gets (or got) by on just his insane chin. This guy would regularly get hit flush with huge bombs without visible effect. Then he gets dropped and stopped in four by Bute.

A great chin is a great asset just as great power is, but any trait in isolation is going to be more hindrance than good because you'll end up relying on it too much, and like all things in life it's a finite resource.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'll address this post tomorrow. Apologies, but I'm a bit knackered and am going to bed.

No problemo

Poet

[Mugwump]

I asked Earnie Shavers who was the hardest puncher he ever faced when he worked in Liverpool. He surprised me by saying Randall Cobb.

[nomadman]

I asked Earnie Shavers who was the hardest puncher he ever faced when he worked in Liverpool. He surprised me by saying Randall Cobb.

That's interesting. Cobb's punches didn't look like they could crack an egg in that fight (an exaggeration, but they really didn't look that hard).

[young_robbed]

Way Overrated

[StarshipTrooper]

That's interesting. Cobb's punches didn't look like they could crack an egg in that fight (an exaggeration, but they really didn't look that hard).

Other fighters have said Cobb couldn't bust an egg with a hammer. In Shaver's case it was probably more a matter of being way older and less able to take punches than he used to.

Poet