Manny Pacqiuao a Top 25 all time great??

[StarshipTrooper]

So you're admitting baseball players today can't live up to those of yesteryear on an even playing field. Thank you!

The irony is he doesn't even realize that admitting their PED use discredits the very players he's trying to defend against those hated "Old Dudes" :chuckle9: 'roids and HGH = cheating.....bottom line

Poet

[SCtrojansbaby]

And why is that? Because they have smaller fields, juiced balls, corked bats and are loaded with steroids. Am I lying?

You can believe what you want.

I don't care, the fact is that its completely different eras guys do things better today and its ******ed to compare.

[studentofthegam]

People we're quite fond of Ray Robinson, to be honest.

Maybe not whilst he was the best fighter in the world, and he knew it too well.

But pretty much in the later of his career and after he retired people were quite fond of him.

And why do you use H2H analogies to compare greatness? It doesn't work like that.

Key-Not while he was the best and thought he was the best. Later after he showed some weakness in the ring. Its how boxing goes so I guess we agree. I dont see the argument. Same with ALI. He was hated even by some of his own black people for being a "trouble maker". He falls off and he's the best thing since sliced bread by the majority.


The head to head issue is pretty clear. Thats why I separated the two. The H2H always comes into play and does have a place in ATG discussions. Thats why we had our debates about SRR beating FLoyd. We cant just take it into consideration when it fits our argument. Resume's are sometimes as questionable as fantasy matches so its a need for both. You cant be the best ever if no one thinks you can beat anyone that came for the next 100 yrs after you.

[SCtrojansbaby]

The irony is he doesn't even realize that admitting their PED use discredits the very players he's trying to defend against those hated "Old Dudes" :chuckle9: 'roids and HGH = cheating.....bottom line

Poet

Yeah because we all know guys never cheated back then when the game had little to no regulations and it was infintley harder for things to get publicized right? LOL you naive little man.

[JAB5239]

You can believe what you want.

I don't care, the fact is that its completely different eras guys do things better today and its ******ed to compare.

What is better about it? Give athletes from any era the same set of circumstances and they'd be doing the same things.Its ******ed to ASSume you're right when you refuse to look at all the circumstances.

[SCtrojansbaby]

What is better about it? Give athletes from any era the same set of circumstances and they'd be doing the same things.Its ******ed to ASSume you're right when you refuse to look at all the circumstances.

THE CIRCUMSTANCE CAN NOT BE THE SAME things change over time. What is so hard to understand?

[StarshipTrooper]

Yeah because we all know guys never cheated back then when the game had little to no regulations and it was infintley harder for things to get publicized right? LOL you naive little man.

Considering Ruth's era was in the wake of the Black Sox scandal with all the Federal investigations that went with it I'd hazard to say that things were a hell of a lot more closely regulated then than they are now.

Oh, and PEDS didn't exist in the 1920s Einstein.....unless you consider beer and hotdogs "PEDS".

Poet

[JAB5239]

THE CIRCUMSTANCE CAN NOT BE THE SAME things change over time. What is so hard to understand?

What has changed besides field conditions, better equipment and steroids?

[Holtol]

[

Baseball fans also realize that Babe Ruth Ty Cobb was hitting MUCH slower and a FAR smaller variety of pitches and in to a field that had MUCH slower fielders. NO player from back then could make a major league team today just about everyone recognizes this Baseball is the worst as strength and conditioning was non existent back then.

It is perfectly ok to say someone is one of the greatest of all time in terms how great he is relative to his era.... just don't say if he was playing in another era he would be as good.

Micky Mantle hit the furthest home run in the history of baseball. Ted Williams hit the furthest ever home run in Fenway. Sandy Koufax threw a base ball 100 mph. Bobby Hull had a 100 mph slap shot. The greatest athletes were not all born 20 or 30 years ago.

[IronDanHamza]

Key-Not while he was the best and thought he was the best. Later after he showed some weakness in the ring. Its how boxing goes so I guess we agree. I dont see the argument. Same with ALI. He was hated even by some of his own black people for being a "trouble maker". He falls off and he's the best thing since sliced bread by the majority.


The head to head issue is pretty clear. Thats why I separated the two. The H2H always comes into play and does have a place in ATG discussions. Thats why we had our debates about SRR beating FLoyd. We cant just take it into consideration when it fits our argument. Resume's are sometimes as questionable as fantasy matches so its a need for both. You cant be the best ever if no one thinks you can beat anyone that came for the next 100 yrs after you.

Well, I can understand why that kind of supreme confidence can give a negative outlook. People like Robinson, Ali and even Floyd Mayweather are special fighters. People don't tend to be fond of that confidence until they are humbled, to a degree.

But I don't think Pacqiauo ties in with that. Although an exceptional fighter, he doesn't have that arrogance, if you will.

There have been exceptional fighters throughout this sport that just won't get the recognition of how great the actually are. Even years and years and years after they retire they still don't get the recognition they might deserve. Look at Gene Tunney for example.

My point being; in 100 years time peoples opinion on Pacqiauo's greatness won't have enhanced. He will be seen as a great fighter if he were to retire today he will never be seen as a Top 10 ATG. No matter how many years pass by.

People like Ray Robinson are put in that leauge because he's that good and achieved that much.

Take what into consideration when it fits my argument? I never once said the fact that Ray Robinson would beat Floyd Mayweather is any reasoning to why he's greater. He's greater because he achieved so much more. My ranking of Robinson over Floyd has nothing to do with any H2H match up.

H2H match up's really don't mean much in terms of greatness. A great fighter can beat another great fighter on a given day. That doesn't mean that they are greater. Hence why resumes and achievements determine greatness.

If that's the case, do you rank Sandy Saddler over Willie Pep? Saddler beat Pep 3 out of 4 times.