Ricardo Lopez and Salvador Sanchez

[Wild Blue Yonda]

to be fair, Olivares was not in his prime in those fights despite his age. certain fighters become shot quicker than others...most notably Wilfred Benitez and Pipino Cuevas. it happens when you start fighting high level competition very early in your career, and Olivares' style was one that took punishment. it adds up quickly.

I think Chavez fairly clearly had the better career as well, but Olivares had an excellent one with plenty of wins over high level competition.

If you notice, though, I called Olivares the best Mexican taking all things into account, collectively --- not purely judging by resumes (though I do contend that taking Chavez through the route which was Olivares' career pretty well stone-cold guarantees he doesn't make it to something like 80-0 before losing).

[$coinblatt$]

thank you. Ive watched some of his matches on youtube and he is pretty impressive.

the problem I have is that I dont know anything about his competition...and if I dont know about his competition, imo I cant accurately judge the fighter. my knowledge fails me when it comes to the lower weight classes. Ill take the time to learn about it some day.

Hes one of my favorite fighters, he doesn't get a lot of recognition because of his weight class (unless your a hardcore boxing fan).Also, he was criticized for never moving up in weight to face guys like carbajal or chiquita gonzalez. JK1700 made a thread on where he should be ranked as far as atg's and he got me into him. http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=417890 this thread pretty much discusses him and his career if you want to read up.

[Steak]

If you notice, though, I called Olivares the best Mexican taking all things into account, collectively --- not purely judging by resumes (though I do contend that taking Chavez through the route which was Olivares' career pretty well stone-cold guarantees he doesn't make it to something like 80-0 before losing).

Im not sure what you mean. who you beat(and how and when) is essentially all that matters to me in terms of legacy. and although I respect the hell out of Olivares, the guy struggled(and lost) much more than Chavez did most of his career, so if we were taking into account purely in ring performances overall I would still have to favor Chavez.

and Chavez would have definitely gone through Olivares' opponents undefeated...the only one thats a maybe is Arguello.(and personally I doubt that based on Arguello's should be loss against Chavez's sparring partner Ramirez). Chavez was bigger than all the top fighters Olivares beat.
trying to imagine Chavez as a bantamweight size is essentially impossible, you simply cant do it.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Olivares, to me, was a superior fighter, who fought (at a minimum) equal competition to Chavez, took a harder road up the mountain, & his biggest signature victories are bigger than Chavez's.

I don't want to come across as stubborn here, because on this topic, I'm really not. I have little problem with Chavez as somebody's number-one, but I take umbrage to SC & many others using sentimentality & familiarity as guidelines for determing greatness. That is flat irresponsible.

[Steak]

Olivares, to me, was a superior fighter, who fought (at a minimum) equal competition to Chavez, took a harder road up the mountain, & his biggest signature victories are bigger than Chavez's.

I don't want to come across as stubborn here, because on this topic, I'm really not. I have little problem with Chavez as somebody's number-one, but I take umbrage to SC & many others using sentimentality & familiarity as guidelines for determing greatness. That is flat irresponsible.

what would you consider Olivares' best 3 wins to be? Chacon, Castillo and Rose?

some people look into losses too much, thats probably why they underrate fighters like Olivares.

[SCtrojansbaby]

best wins does not = your prime automatically. Ramirez was way too young and inexperienced, it wasnt a very good win.

I thought Olivares was prime around the time he beat Lionel Rose in '69, maybe a little later on. The Castillo fights probably took a lot out of him.

losses arent that big a deal to me, as long as you beat high level competition. and Olivares did that.

2 of your top 5 wins come during the time you are in or close to your prime

Losses to other great fighters or even B level fighter aren't such a big deal but but getting knocked out by C level guys is.


Danmmit I said I wasn't going to do this

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Rose alone is a better single fighter than anyone Chavez bested.

[The Surgeon]

Ive only seen a handfull of Lopez fights if im honest, he looked the nuts but who was he fighting? I personally just dont know how good these guys were but none the less i was very very impressed with him but Sanchez is one of my favs, i like him alot and i KNOW his opposition was top drawer

[Diabolical D]

Two of the best, Finitos uppercut against preecha, against anyone was devistating.His boxing skills were awesome. Sanchez had the world in front of him he was the complete fighter and I would have loved to see a gomez rematch. If they had the same amount of time, competition and exposure as chavez had it would be hard to say, but since they didnt I have to agree with Chavez being the #1 mexican boxer

[SCtrojansbaby]

Rose alone is a better single fighter than anyone Chavez bested.

lol.............