How big of a chance would you give Marciano against Foreman?

[Scott9945]

Not a has been, but not sharp. Not at his best. He didn't train and didn't want to train. The Frazier fight was not the case I made for Marciano winning. It was a fight I mentioned because George gets way too much credit. Rocky was a better puncher with more stamina. Rocky would be hunched over and moving, making George miss, not just stand straight up and throw one left hook at a time in Frazier style. Frazier had peaked before George, he had gone soft, and you could plainly see in the films of his previous two fights that he wasn't sharp or aggressive like he had been with Ali and his previous opponents. After the Ali fight, Joe went down hill and didn't look anywhere near as good as he had in 1968-1972. So Joe wasn't a bum, but he was pretty much finished as a top champion.

That's a very reasonable take on this. Frazier was past his prime (and soft for the Foreman fight), but being an unbeaten (but inactive) champion caused nobody to notice.

[DarkTerror88]

Not a has been, but not sharp. Not at his best. He didn't train and didn't want to train. The Frazier fight was not the case I made for Marciano winning. It was a fight I mentioned because George gets way too much credit. Rocky was a better puncher with more stamina. Rocky would be hunched over and moving, making George miss, not just stand straight up and throw one left hook at a time in Frazier style. Frazier had peaked before George, he had gone soft, and you could plainly see in the films of his previous two fights that he wasn't sharp or aggressive like he had been with Ali and his previous opponents. After the Ali fight, Joe went down hill and didn't look anywhere near as good as he had in 1968-1972. So Joe wasn't a bum, but he was pretty much finished as a top champion.

i agree with your arguement escept for Joe frazier having a "Stand up and throw one left hook at a time style". Frazier had arguably the best head movement in heavyweight history and a damn good body attack too.

[Great John L]

[QUOTE=DarkTerror88;9937910]i agree with your arguement escept for Joe frazier having a "Stand up and throw one left hook at a time style". Frazier had arguably the best head movement in heavyweight history and a damn good body attack too.[/QU

I kind of exaggerated, but that's just how it looked to me only for the Foreman fight. Pre Foreman fights Joe was excelent but he jsut didn't look so great in Foreman fight and after.

[DarkTerror88]

[QUOTE=Great John L;9937921]

i agree with your arguement escept for Joe frazier having a "Stand up and throw one left hook at a time style". Frazier had arguably the best head movement in heavyweight history and a damn good body attack too.[/QU

I kind of exaggerated, but that's just how it looked to me only for the Foreman fight. Pre Foreman fights Joe was excelent but he jsut didn't look so great in Foreman fight and after.

outside of manilla and maybe quarry II your right.

Excellent Debate btw

[Wild Blue Yonda]

People under-rate how good the Frazier who lost to Foreman first time out was. "Has-been" is completely distorting the reality.

[CarlosG815]

People under-rate how good the Frazier who lost to Foreman first time out was. "Has-been" is completely distorting the reality.

I exaggerated a bit but I don't see how he can be under rated.. He was not 70% of the fighter he was when he fought Ali.

[joseph5620]

Not a has been, but not sharp. Not at his best. He didn't train and didn't want to train. The Frazier fight was not the case I made for Marciano winning. It was a fight I mentioned because George gets way too much credit. Rocky was a better puncher with more stamina. Rocky would be hunched over and moving, making George miss, not just stand straight up and throw one left hook at a time in Frazier style. Frazier had peaked before George, he had gone soft, and you could plainly see in the films of his previous two fights that he wasn't sharp or aggressive like he had been with Ali and his previous opponents. After the Ali fight, Joe went down hill and didn't look anywhere near as good as he had in 1968-1972. So Joe wasn't a bum, but he was pretty much finished as a top champion.


As for Chuvalo, that wasn't a win in brutal fashion like you make it out to be. Watch the fight. George whips random punches when he has Chuvalo on the ropes in the 3rd round, most of which didn't even land and those that did were harmless and didn't do the damage the stoppage suggested. Foreman admitted to Chuvalo he was tired and wery whipping punches Chuvalo just took and Chuvalo could keep going. Foreman was losing stamina at a rapid rate.

Foreman could wail on Marciano, a much stronger and more durable fighter than Chuvalo for a few rounds, he would miss, he'd get tired. George gets undeserved credit for Norton as well, a glass chinned fighter vulnerable to any big puncher, even Cooney. And as is plain to see, Frazier was well past it.

LOL It's funny to see Foreman criticized for fights he won convincingly. You talk as if Foreman lost those fights.

[Great John L]

It's criticism that needs to be considered. George Foreman could braely keep swinging after he was hitting Chuvalo with msotly ineffective punches. And Frazier was not a great fighter at the time he fought George.

Foreman gets too tired to easily. He wastes his pwoer on inefefctive punches. Marciano would take the punches George would land, though he'd miss many, and out last George, who probably would be severely out of wind after 4 rounds. George had many flaws. He wasn't as good a puncher as Marciano in terms of volume, efficiency, shortness, and wouldn't have the stamina to go a full fight with Rocky.

[Kid McCoy]

So in your opinion Frazier was at the top of his game at the time he lost to Foreman?

No he wasn't at the top of his game but he was hardly a has been either. An even older Frazier was still good enough to demolish a Quarry who was coming off dominant wins against Shavers and Lyle, and to fight like hell for 14 rounds against Ali in Manila.

And by the same token, Walcott was almost 40 with over twice as many fights as Frazier when he fought Marciano. Was he at the top of his game? Yet far from being blasted out in two rounds like Frazier was he knocked Rocky down, hurt him a couple of other times and gave him a pasting for the first 12 rounds.

It's criticism that needs to be considered. George Foreman could braely keep swinging after he was hitting Chuvalo with msotly ineffective punches. And Frazier was not a great fighter at the time he fought George.

You make it sound as if Foreman was about to collapse with exhaustion after three rounds with Chuvalo. Funny that those mostly ineffectively punches still had Chuvalo (according to Don Dunphy) "spitting blood" and taking an "awesome battering" and had his manager and his wife yelling for it to be stopped. Like I said it's not much to go on if the case for Foreman losing is based on a fight he won in dominant fashion.

[bklynboy]

No he wasn't at the top of his game but he was hardly a has been either. An even older Frazier was still good enough to demolish a Quarry who was coming off dominant wins against Shavers and Lyle, and to fight like hell for 14 rounds against Ali in Manila.

And by the same token, Walcott was almost 40 with over twice as many fights as Frazier when he fought Marciano. Was he at the top of his game? Yet far from being blasted out in two rounds like Frazier was he knocked Rocky down, hurt him a couple of other times and gave him a pasting for the first 12 rounds.



You make it sound as if Foreman was about to collapse with exhaustion after three rounds with Chuvalo. Funny that those mostly ineffectively punches still had Chuvalo (according to Don Dunphy) "spitting blood" and taking an "awesome battering" and had his manager and his wife yelling for it to be stopped. Like I said it's not much to go on if the case for Foreman losing is based on a fight he won in dominant fashion.

Still I have to say that Great John L made a good point that Walcott and Charles had their problems with Marciano. My first thought was that Foreman would destroy Marciano but young George's greatest weakness was stamina. If Marciano could survive the early rounds, make Foreman miss and tire, the fight would be his in the later rounds.

I think that Foreman should be able to manhandle Marciano: push him off, crowd him, wrestle Marciano to the ropes, beat on his shoulders and arms and body.

As much as I like Marciano I still have to give the edge to Foreman. Would Marciano go into this fight saying to himself "make him tire," "just survive the first three rounds," "you have it if you make him miss," "don't worry about hitting him, make him tire himself out." If he had that mindset he just might do it.

This is a great match-up for fans. George seems unbeatable if you think of the first three rounds. But then, if Marciano survives those rounds, you know he'll KO Foreman as Foreman will just about fall dead from exhaustion in the later rounds