Mexico & Puerto Rico...

[Joey Giardello]

I did not, "downgrade" all his wins. I simply don't rate some of them as highly as you do.

"Tito's flab at MW?" He was completely & thoroughly out-boxed, out-thought, & out-punched by Hopkins for twelve long rounds. Hopkins physically & mentally exhausted Trinidad in their fight --- there's no way you can convince me Trinidad could have lasted as long as he did if he were out-of-shape.

Can you show me any analysts who were saying Trinidad was past his prime when he met Hopkins? I will concede happily Trinidad probably peaked as a Jr. Middleweight, but you're reaching, IMO, to say he was at the top of his game in beating down Vargas, but then is rather suddenly, "past-it" some five pounds & ten months later, conveniently coinciding with his (effectively) career-ending defeat to Hopkins.

I am not downgrading Trinidad, or his wins. I have said before this guy is a top-20 all-time Welterweight. If that isn't high praise in your eyes, you are hard to please! Heh. I think in the end, we simply do not share the same high opinion of him. I do think, though, to simply say, "you can do this with any fighter," is a cliche too facetious for the thoughts I expressed regarding his career. It was great, & he was a great fighter, but he is not one of the best five Ricans ever --- saying so is a disservice to the terrific history of the Island's association with the sport. There have been at least five better Boxers than Tito.

trinindad had back to back battles with unbeaten world champions vargas and reid, trinindad spent most of his career at wetlterweight, then moved to lightmiddle, by the time he got to middle the hard fights had caught up with him and it showed the first time he went in with a great middleweight, the extra weight also showed look at trinindad at middleweight he has flabb around his belly and had lost speed at middleweight. Judge trinindad from his prime years at his prime weights welter and lightmiddle were he was never beaten and he beat the lkes of oscar, reid, vargas, campas and whitaker.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

You keep bringing up Whitaker, Reid, & De La Hoya --- but like I say, I feel he lost to De La Hoya, Reid is in no way, shape or form an enhancement to anyone's legacy, & Whitaker was completely, utterly, no-two-ways-about-it spent as a fighter.

I'm not criticising Trinidad for the Reid & Whitaker fights, to be clear. He did what was expected of him, & credit for that, but I do not see those as improving his image toward being one of the best five Ricans of all-time. You say he had all these taxing wars & was not the same fighter by the time he moved to Middle --- he sure looked pretty close to being the same fighter who stopped Vargas when he was slapping Joppy around the ring. Seems to me Hopkins was just the plainly better fighter, & would've beaten Trinidad at any time, under any circumstances.

I do not buy this argument that Trinidad was dramatically past his best when he fought Hopkins (again, is there anyone you can think of who said as much at the time Trinidad moved to Middleweight?). As said, I am happy to concede his best days were at 147 & 154...but if wasn't at his peak against Hopkins, I sure don't think he was far from it at all, & a truly great fighter (in the highest sense of the word) would've picked their career back up off the canvas after losing, which Trinidad failed to do. He didn't learn a single thing from getting out-boxed by De La Hoya, & those limitations (not being fat, or shop-worn) were his ultimate undoing against Hopkins.

[Cafe]

I think thats my top five

1. Carlos Ortiz
2. Wilfredo Gomez
3. Wilfred Benitez
4. Jose Basora
5. Jose Torres

put it in my sig too.

[Cafe]

How ya like my signature?

[SCtrojansbaby]

I feel just the opposite for Trinidad. I see him make a lot of lists, but I chalk at least some of that up to his fame & branding. To me, watching him, there is no feasible way this fella is the fifth-best fighter the Island has produced or better...its long history is just too rich for that (& if you see some of my posts, both here & in Fantasy Fights, I am usually pretty complimentary of Tito). There were a few names fighting out fifth spot on my list, but I could not reasonably see Trinidad as one of them.

He is one of those fighters who achieved more in their career than their talent alone should've allowed them to do, & you always have to respect that. Trinidad earned an impeccable win streak over many years, won titles in a few divisions, & most impressively, always, always gave 110% to the cause at hand, regardless of the opponent --- but again, his weaknesses & flaws leave him short of this particular Pantheon beyond doubt, IMO.

LOL only on Boxing scene.

There isn't one Puerto Rican fight fan who doesn't have Tito in the top 5 and most have him in the top 3.

LOL @ Jose Torres

[Cafe]

LOL only on Boxing scene.

There isn't one Puerto Rican fight fan who doesn't have Tito in the top 5 and most have him in the top 3.

LOL @ Jose Torres

Thats because NOBODY even has JOSE BASORA on their list. Its all propaganda, to make Puerto Rico look bad, Felix Trinidad in reality, is not a top five ATG in Puerto Rican lists, Jose Basora argueably defeated the greatest boxer ever, and you would rate one dimensional TRinidad over him LOL JMM argueably beat Pacman, and look at all the fuss he is getting....so imange where Puerto Ricans should put Jose Basora on their ATG list...

[SCtrojansbaby]

Thats because NOBODY even has JOSE BASORA on their list. Its all propaganda, to make Puerto Rico look bad, Felix Trinidad in reality, is not a top five ATG in Puerto Rican lists, Jose Basora argueably defeated the greatest boxer ever, and you would rate one dimensional TRinidad over him LOL JMM argueably beat Pacman, and look at all the fuss he is getting....so imange where Puerto Ricans should put Jose Basora on their ATG list...

What is your excuse for having Jose Torress over Trinidad?

[StarshipTrooper]

I do think, though, to simply say, "you can do this with any fighter," is a cliche too facetious for the thoughts I expressed regarding his career.

Well, he IS right that that's something that can be done to any fighter.....I've done it myself many many times when buzzkilling some nuthugger's wet dream. Pick a fighter, any fighter you care to name, and I can run his resume through the shredder

PS. I DO agree with you about Tito though :chuckle9:

Poet

[Cafe]

What is your excuse for having Jose Torress over Trinidad?

He defeated **** Tiger, and moved up from Middleweight to Light Heavyweight, fighting the best. Again, he was not one dimensional, and has better wins than Trinidad.

[StarshipTrooper]

But Zarate started off with such an incredible record that he can easily be regarded as one of the greatest bantams of all time.

It's funny: I always catch heat for rating Zarate as high as I do :hah9:

Poet