Mexico & Puerto Rico...

[Joey Giardello]

I feel just the opposite for Trinidad. I see him make a lot of lists, but I chalk at least some of that up to his fame & branding. To me, watching him, there is no feasible way this fella is the fifth-best fighter the Island has produced or better...its long history is just too rich for that (& if you see some of my posts, both here & in Fantasy Fights, I am usually pretty complimentary of Tito). There were a few names fighting out fifth spot on my list, but I could not reasonably see Trinidad as one of them.

He is one of those fighters who achieved more in their career than their talent alone should've allowed them to do, & you always have to respect that. Trinidad earned an impeccable win streak over many years, won titles in a few divisions, & most impressively, always, always gave 110% to the cause at hand, regardless of the opponent --- but again, his weaknesses & flaws leave him short of this particular Pantheon beyond doubt, IMO.

are you talking about the same felix trinindad who tuck the unbeaten records of oscar, vargas, campas and reid?? the same trinindad who never lost as a welterweight or lightmiddleweight and gave pernel whiaker his first proper loss brakeing his jaw aswel, tito for me was never beat in his prime! by the time he had eat his way to middle he was past his best and still managed to win the wba middleweight title becomeing the first man to ever knock joppy out! he even comeback out of retirement and beat mayorga when vargas, oscar and mosley all wanted nothing to do with the then dangerman mayorga they waited for tito to beat him up first before they would fight him

[Cafe]

Well, you are two over the scheduled limit, & you are lacking a Mexico list, but the names you mentioned are pretty sound.

Yeah, I really dont have a Mexican list right now lol How could people leave out those fighters and replace them with Edwin Rosairo LOL. Felix Trinidad is a newer fighter, with a championship belt, but I feel he isnt the best just for having great Kos, he was one dimensional and lost his fights pretty badly, where Basora drew with Sugar Ray Robinson, and Montanez gave Lou Ambers all he could handle. I put Wilfred Benitez ahead of basora for his championships of course. But Basora>Benitez in achivements.

Really shows that people don't take their time to do these lists....

[Cafe]

are you talking about the same felix trinindad who tuck the unbeaten records of oscar, vargas, campas and reid?? the same trinindad who never lost as a welterweight or lightmiddleweight and gave pernel whiaker his first proper loss brakeing his jaw aswel, tito for me was never beat in his prime! by the time he had eat his way to middle he was past his best and still managed to win the wba middleweight title becomeing the first man to ever knock joppy out! he even comeback out of retirement and beat mayorga when vargas, oscar and mosley all wanted nothing to do with the then dangerman mayorga they waited for tito to beat him up first before they would fight him

he was one dimensional, and lost his losses pretty badly. Dont overrate him, just cause he was here in the 2000's, to do an All Time List you have to look at ALL TIME PERIODS.

[Joey Giardello]

he was one dimensional, and lost his losses pretty badly. Dont overrate him, just cause he was here in the 2000's, to do an All Time List you have to look at ALL TIME PERIODS.

what?? how can you over rate him! trinindad's career speaks for itself never lost as a welter or lightmiddle, never avoided no one and for me was never beat in his prime

[Wild Blue Yonda]

are you talking about the same felix trinindad who tuck the unbeaten records of oscar, vargas, campas and reid?? the same trinindad who never lost as a welterweight or lightmiddleweight and gave pernel whiaker his first proper loss brakeing his jaw aswel, tito for me was never beat in his prime! by the time he had eat his way to middle he was past his best and still managed to win the wba middleweight title becomeing the first man to ever knock joppy out! he even comeback out of retirement and beat mayorga when vargas, oscar and mosley all wanted nothing to do with the then dangerman mayorga they waited for tito to beat him up first before they would fight him

Well, I will try to address this fighter-for-fighter. Like I said, I do not consider Trinidad top-5 all-time Rican material, but I will try to respond to your post & counter some points without being too negative, if possible...

1. "..Took the unbeaten records of De La Hoya, Vargas, Campas & Reid..."

For me, I would immediately throw out the, "win" against De La Hoya. Just staing my view, but I have never found seven rounds to give Trinidad in this fight. Not a-once. I don't feel he won, so I don't give him credit for it, even if the, "W" exists on his column. Being frank, I thought he received a gift.

Vargas was an excellent victory, against a very good (not great) foe who, though inexperienced in terms of the number of bouts he'd had, & the fact he was quite young, was proving fight-to-fight that he belonged on the world stage. In retrospect, some will downgrade this success & say Vargas lost to all the great fighters of his generation. True, but he was competitive with all of them, & beat most of the guys a notch or more below. His confidence & abilities were at a career-peak when Trinidad beat him in an absorbing & great fight, & unlike against De La Hoya a year earlier, there was no room for controversy. A very good win, but a shade short of being a really great one, given how the remainder of Vargas' career panned out.

Campas was an impressive victory, but nothing Trinidad (or any truly world-class fighter) wasn't expected to do against a man of his calibre. It's a win which is just fine, but not what I would call an add-on to one's legacy. Trinidad demolished him, but in one form or another, so would any of the five (or even ten) best Rican boxers in history.

Reid, while a high-profile fight of the day, does not add one lick to Trinidad's legacy, IMO. Fourteen fights into an ultimately unremarkable career does nothing to enhance Trinidad's claim to the Puerto Rican Pantheon, IMO.

2. "...He gave Whitaker his first proper loss, never lost at Welter or Jr. Middle, & was never beaten in his prime..."

Yes, Trinidad beat Whitaker handily, but Holmes was the first to actually stop Ali. No one puts much stock in that, & I'm not being facetious in comparing the two fights, the Whitaker who fought Trinidad makes the version of himself who fought De La Hoya two years earlier look like the prime man who ruled the LW division. Between a surprisingly rapid decline (beginning a solid few years earlier), his two-year lay-off & the heavy coke addiction, Whitaker was less than a shell of himself. I disagree with your other points, too. For me, Trinidad represented Whitaker's first decisive loss, but I felt he was edged out by De La Hoya, & certainly, I did not feel Whitaker could've won that bout by a wide enough margin to be seen to have been robbed (though some do). We've been over what I feel was a loss for Trinidad at Welter with De La Hoya, but that aside, sure, he had a very stable & impressive run betwen 147 & 154, doing much with somewhat limited abilities.

3. "...Ate his way to MW, was past his best by then, & still won the WBA belt..."

Let's be fair, here --- his fight with Hopkins was a huge affair because Trinidad was an unbeaten 28-year-old at the height of his career. To say he, "ate his way to MW" is just not true. I feel Trinidad peaked as a Jr. Middle, so I do feel that was his best weightclass, but there is no way, to me, he didn't succeed at 160lbs. because of weight. Hopkins stopped him (& his career) dead in his tracks, & to Trinidad's discredit, he never recovered as a great fighter should from their first (official) loss. Joppy was a case of nothing more than Trinidad doing what was expected of him. He was a cherry-pick waiting to happen, & while I won't criticise Trinidad at all for the win (he did what was expected of him, & that's fine), I don't see it as a legacy-enhancing result, partial belt on the line or not.

4. "...He came out of retirement & beat a Mayorga no one wanted anything to do with..."

That was a fairly impressive victory for a fighter who'd been off for so long. Trinidad could've taken a softer route, but stepped up immediately, to his credit. However, look at the careers & the rivals tackled by Vargas, De La Hoya & Mosley --- there's no way you fight the guys these men did & duck someone like Mayorga (this is analogous to those people who erroneously argue Leonard ducked Pryor out of fear, while taking on the likes of Duran & Hearns). If those three weren't yet fighting Mayorga, it wasn't because they were in fear of him, count on that. They all fought better men routinely.

Look, Trinidad had a great career, & I still remember the first time I saw him. I said in the beginning this kid will do well, but he will struggle to hold onto any legitimate title he may win. He's just got too many natural limitations, & he doesn't appear to show any desire to significantly improve his actual skill-set. I was wrong in the sense he went much, much further than I anticipated (judging him in '93, when first I saw him). A lot of that was on the back of a terrific commitment to victory & his excellent conditioning, & you have to admire a fighter like that. However, I just cannot see how he would jump the queue over Puerto Rico's absolute elite-echelon fighters.

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Phew! That turned out a good bit longer than I intended, seeing it up there now. Apologies!

[Wild Blue Yonda]

Yeah, I really dont have a Mexican list right now lol How could people leave out those fighters and replace them with Edwin Rosairo LOL. Felix Trinidad is a newer fighter, with a championship belt, but I feel he isnt the best just for having great Kos, he was one dimensional and lost his fights pretty badly, where Basora drew with Sugar Ray Robinson, and Montanez gave Lou Ambers all he could handle. I put Wilfred Benitez ahead of basora for his championships of course. But Basora>Benitez in achivements.

Really shows that people don't take their time to do these lists....

I could not agree more on all counts. I figured perhaps your Rican blood prevented you from stooping to making a list of Mexican fighters, mortal enemies that they represent LOL.

[Cafe]

I could not agree more on all counts. I figured perhaps your Rican blood prevented you from stooping to making a list of Mexican fighters, mortal enemies that they represent LOL.

Nah lol I would love to do one, I mighta in the past but now its all blurry with Morales, Barrera, Marquez and their old tymers lol just haven't really looked into the subject to speak lol

[Joey Giardello]

Well, I will try to address this fighter-for-fighter. Like I said, I do not consider Trinidad top-5 all-time Rican material, but I will try to respond to your post & counter some points without being too negative, if possible...

1. "..Took the unbeaten records of De La Hoya, Vargas, Campas & Reid..."

For me, I would immediately throw out the, "win" against De La Hoya. Just staing my view, but I have never found seven rounds to give Trinidad in this fight. Not a-once. I don't feel he won, so I don't give him credit for it, even if the, "W" exists on his column. Being frank, I thought he received a gift.

Vargas was an excellent victory, against a very good (not great) foe who, though inexperienced in terms of the number of bouts he'd had, & the fact he was quite young, was proving fight-to-fight that he belonged on the world stage. In retrospect, some will downgrade this success & say Vargas lost to all the great fighters of his generation. True, but he was competitive with all of them, & beat most of the guys a notch or more below. His confidence & abilities were at a career-peak when Trinidad beat him in an absorbing & great fight, & unlike against De La Hoya a year earlier, there was no room for controversy. A very good win, but a shade short of being a really great one, given how the remainder of Vargas' career panned out.

Campas was an impressive victory, but nothing Trinidad (or any truly world-class fighter) wasn't expected to do against a man of his calibre. It's a win which is just fine, but not what I would call an add-on to one's legacy. Trinidad demolished him, but in one form or another, so would any of the five (or even ten) best Rican boxers in history.

Reid, while a high-profile fight of the day, does not add one lick to Trinidad's legacy, IMO. Fourteen fights into an ultimately unremarkable career does nothing to enhance Trinidad's claim to the Puerto Rican Pantheon, IMO.

2. "...He gave Whitaker his first proper loss, never lost at Welter or Jr. Middle, & was never beaten in his prime..."

Yes, Trinidad beat Whitaker handily, but Holmes was the first to actually stop Ali. No one puts much stock in that, & I'm not being facetious in comparing the two fights, the Whitaker who fought Trinidad makes the version of himself who fought De La Hoya two years earlier look like the prime man who ruled the LW division. Between a surprisingly rapid decline (beginning a solid few years earlier), his two-year lay-off & the heavy coke addiction, Whitaker was less than a shell of himself. I disagree with your other points, too. For me, Trinidad represented Whitaker's first decisive loss, but I felt he was edged out by De La Hoya, & certainly, I did not feel Whitaker could've won that bout by a wide enough margin to be seen to have been robbed (though some do). We've been over what I feel was a loss for Trinidad at Welter with De La Hoya, but that aside, sure, he had a very stable & impressive run betwen 147 & 154, doing much with somewhat limited abilities.

3. "...Ate his way to MW, was past his best by then, & still won the WBA belt..."

Let's be fair, here --- his fight with Hopkins was a huge affair because Trinidad was an unbeaten 28-year-old at the height of his career. To say he, "ate his way to MW" is just not true. I feel Trinidad peaked as a Jr. Middle, so I do feel that was his best weightclass, but there is no way, to me, he didn't succeed at 160lbs. because of weight. Hopkins stopped him (& his career) dead in his tracks, & to Trinidad's discredit, he never recovered as a great fighter should from their first (official) loss. Joppy was a case of nothing more than Trinidad doing what was expected of him. He was a cherry-pick waiting to happen, & while I won't criticise Trinidad at all for the win (he did what was expected of him, & that's fine), I don't see it as a legacy-enhancing result, partial belt on the line or not.

4. "...He came out of retirement & beat a Mayorga no one wanted anything to do with..."

That was a fairly impressive victory for a fighter who'd been off for so long. Trinidad could've taken a softer route, but stepped up immediately, to his credit. However, look at the careers & the rivals tackled by Vargas, De La Hoya & Mosley --- there's no way you fight the guys these men did & duck someone like Mayorga (this is analogous to those people who erroneously argue Leonard ducked Pryor out of fear, while taking on the likes of Duran & Hearns). If those three weren't yet fighting Mayorga, it wasn't because they were in fear of him, count on that. They all fought better men routinely.

Look, Trinidad had a great career, & I still remember the first time I saw him. I said in the beginning this kid will do well, but he will struggle to hold onto any legitimate title he may win. He's just got too many natural limitations, & he doesn't appear to show any desire to significantly improve his actual skill-set. I was wrong in the sense he went much, much further than I anticipated (judging him in '93, when first I saw him). A lot of that was on the back of a terrific commitment to victory & his excellent conditioning, & you have to admire a fighter like that. However, I just cannot see how he would jump the queue over Puerto Rico's absolute elite-echelon fighters.

You have down graded all of tito's wins, you can do what you just done with any fighter!! look at tito's flab around his belly at middleweight and tell me he didnt eat his way there, and all the battles tito had at welterweight and lightmiddle took alot out of him when he got to middleweight he was not the sam fighter, as a huge tito fan i have seen nearly every fight of his and i can tell you he was past his best and in the wrong weight class against hopkins

[Wild Blue Yonda]

I did not, "downgrade" all his wins. I simply don't rate some of them as highly as you do.

"Tito's flab at MW?" He was completely & thoroughly out-boxed, out-thought, & out-punched by Hopkins for twelve long rounds. Hopkins physically & mentally exhausted Trinidad in their fight --- there's no way you can convince me Trinidad could have lasted as long as he did if he were out-of-shape.

Can you show me any analysts who were saying Trinidad was past his prime when he met Hopkins? I will concede happily Trinidad probably peaked as a Jr. Middleweight, but you're reaching, IMO, to say he was at the top of his game in beating down Vargas, but then is rather suddenly, "past-it" some five pounds & ten months later, conveniently coinciding with his (effectively) career-ending defeat to Hopkins.

I am not downgrading Trinidad, or his wins. I have said before this guy is a top-20 all-time Welterweight. If that isn't high praise in your eyes, you are hard to please! Heh. I think in the end, we simply do not share the same high opinion of him. I do think, though, to simply say, "you can do this with any fighter," is a cliche too facetious for the thoughts I expressed regarding his career. It was great, & he was a great fighter, but he is not one of the best five Ricans ever --- saying so is a disservice to the terrific history of the Island's association with the sport. There have been at least five better Boxers than Tito.