Who are fighters you consider *borderline* greats?

[XionComrade]

Did you consider that Frazier got hit more because he fought a consistantly better class of fighter than Marciano and Tyson did? Hell, Tyson's own in-prime trainers admitted Mike's defense was grossly overrated as it's unlikely any fighter is going to take many punches when his opponent is running for his life just trying to survive. In their words Tyson's offense WAS his defense.

Poet

Yes and a good offense is the BEST defense, always true of course. But Mike was usually outside of even the tallest fighters range before jabbing his way in. Frazier was always their, constantly pressuring and punching. Thus, he was always their to get hit. Yes the guys Frazier fought were typically much better than the ones Tyson did and obviously the guys Marciano did. But Frazier, by the nature of being constantly on the inside, was more likely to get hit, and did.

[StarshipTrooper]

Yes and a good offense is the BEST defense, always true of course. But Mike was usually outside of even the tallest fighters range before jabbing his way in. Frazier was always their, constantly pressuring and punching. Thus, he was always their to get hit. Yes the guys Frazier fought were typically much better than the ones Tyson did and obviously the guys Marciano did. But Frazier, by the nature of being constantly on the inside, was more likely to get hit, and did.

Frazier was also a bodypuncher and Tyson, while he had the tools to be one (and occasionally flashed it), was not. That's beside point though, there's a big difference between fighting a game Ali (or Foreman or Quarry or Ellis) and scarying little girls like Trevor Berbick into "please don't hurt me" mode. You're going to get hit more period. People are constantly pointing out that Tyson after he dumped Rooney didn't look as awesome.....coincidence that that happened to be at exactly the time his class of opposition improved (Douglas, Ruddock, Bruno).....not.

Poet

[XionComrade]

Frazier was also a bodypuncher and Tyson, while he had the tools to be one (and occasionally flashed it), was not. That's beside point though, there's a big difference between fighting a game Ali (or Foreman or Quarry or Ellis) and scarying little girls like Trevor Berbick into "please don't hurt me" mode. You're going to get hit more period. People are constantly pointing out that Tyson after he dumped Rooney didn't look as awesome.....coincidence that that happened to be at exactly the time his class of opposition improved (Douglas, Ruddock, Bruno).....not.

Poet

Watching Joe Frazier go to the body was like watching Magnus Samuelsson cut down a tree with a sledge hammer, watching Tyson do it was like watching Joe Schmo do it with a jack hammer. I agree with you 100%! Ruddock was Tyson's best win, period. He was a very good fighter, don't get me wrong, but was nothing more than a good contender. I think that Frazier's heart and guts made him. Getting up 6x from George Foreman is a feat in and of itself, and he showed it 10x over in the 3rd fight against Ali.

But when I watch him fight I just don't see the talent that jumps out like it does with Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Foreman, Ali, etc...What I see is fantastic heart instead. He is borderline in my book, even though I would take him over both Klistchko's and Holyfield

[StarshipTrooper]

Watching Joe Frazier go to the body was like watching Magnus Samuelsson cut down a tree with a sledge hammer, watching Tyson do it was like watching Joe Schmo do it with a jack hammer. I agree with you 100%! Ruddock was Tyson's best win, period. He was a very good fighter, don't get me wrong, but was nothing more than a good contender. I think that Frazier's heart and guts made him. Getting up 6x from George Foreman is a feat in and of itself, and he showed it 10x over in the 3rd fight against Ali.

But when I watch him fight I just don't see the talent that jumps out like it does with Liston, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Foreman, Ali, etc...What I see is fantastic heart instead. He is borderline in my book, even though I would take him over both Klistchko's and Holyfield

I personally see the Ruddock fights as Tyson's finest efforts: He showed heart in overcoming an opponent who would take his best shots and fire back instead of running up a white flag.

As for Frazier, I think the talent is there if you look it just gets overshadowed by his determination and work ethic (which he shared with Marciano). Funny you mention Holyfield as I rank him higher than Frazier (and Foreman, Tyson, and Marciano). But that's another thread

Poet

[Joeyzagz]

David Tua

Rid**** Bowe

Poet take my name off your sig...honestly that is pretty childish.

[StarshipTrooper]

David Tua

Rid**** Bowe

Poet take my name off your sig...honestly that is pretty childish.

Stop bringing abject nuthuggery to the History Section and I'll consider it.

Poet