better puncher - mike tyson or joe louis?

[CarlosG815]

To be honest ThemApples did touch on Tyson's late round workrate issue and lack of infighting.

I'll be damned if I can think of any other weaknesses in prime Tyson precluding him from being a 'complete fighter'. Unless you want to judge him on his lack of height and reach....which he actually dealt with very well.

Don't feed the troll. He openly admits thread after thread about Tyson that he is bias and has a personal hatred for him, so his opinion is tainted. It isn't even worth responding to.

[Greatest1942]

Agreed, if you really like being knocked unconcious.......Tyson is definitely the best man for the job. Ha ha

But to be fair and objective Louis probably didn't punch as hard as Tyson in terms of one punch power and the punches didn't come quite as quick.

Louis did have the better jab, if only because Tyson didn't use his quite as much......but I think the voting probably flatters Louis. Louis is no doubt the better champion with the better record, legend and legacy but when it comes down to who actually punched 'better' this is a very close call.

I have no shame in admitting that I shade prime Tyson in that department.

When exactly did Tyson punch faster than Louis? Just watch the Walcott Louis 2 KO combo and see the punches that are put together, with the speed...I would like you to let me see a punch combo of Tyson even with Comparable speed...and Louis had more 1 punch KO than Tyson, drove people's mouth guard through and broke gold , broke vertebraes and bones...I didn't see Tyson doing that kind of damage...may be you can show me some films that show Tyson throwing punches faster than even that past prime version of Louis? Louis kncoked people cold for minutes mate, for minutes mate not just for the ten count regularly..,do you want me to make a list of Louis KO's where the opponent was rendered decapitated to that of Tyson...just let me know if u want to know..sorry to say Tyson never ever had a jab like Louis no matter what you say about him using it less or not.

[CarlosG815]

When exactly did Tyson punch faster than Louis? Just watch the Walcott Louis 2 KO combo and see the punches that are put together, with the speed...I would like you to let me see a punch combo of Tyson even with Comparable speed...and Louis had more 1 punch KO than Tyson, drove people's mouth guard through and broke gold , broke vertebraes and bones...I didn't see Tyson doing that kind of damage...may be you can show me some films that show Tyson throwing punches faster than even that past prime version of Louis? Louis kncoked people cold for minutes mate, for minutes mate not just for the ten count regularly..,do you want me to make a list of Louis KO's where the opponent was rendered decapitated to that of Tyson...just let me know if u want to know..sorry to say Tyson never ever had a jab like Louis no matter what you say about him using it less or not.

I'll do one better and show you where he's faster than Joe Louis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RUZa-gVXJ4

Also keep in mind, iirc, Louis wore gloves 8oz or less. Tyson wore heavier gloves with more padding in his career. Had he been wearing the same gloves as Joe Louis, he'd have killed people with shots to the head. I may be mistaken but I believe Louis wore lighter gloves.

Scroll to 1:25 and witness a 3 hooks to the body in under 1 second.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S9J3lr-nyU

Don't forget that even with the disadvantage of glove size Tyson had it the 80's compared to the 40's, he was still able to destroy bone structure, as he did with the iron chinned Donovan Ruddock, where he shattered his eye socket and broke his jaw to where it was hanging off after the fight.

Scroll to 1:15 and look at his jaw hanging off. He can barely speak after the fight. I almost feel bad for him at 2:35 where he laughs. And even with his garbage style, Tyson is still glowing afterward, and barely winded. He was able to slip most of the punches ruddock threw and looks unphased.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rMgohS3-8g

[Sugarj]

When exactly did Tyson punch faster than Louis? Just watch the Walcott Louis 2 KO combo and see the punches that are put together, with the speed...I would like you to let me see a punch combo of Tyson even with Comparable speed...and Louis had more 1 punch KO than Tyson, drove people's mouth guard through and broke gold , broke vertebraes and bones...I didn't see Tyson doing that kind of damage...may be you can show me some films that show Tyson throwing punches faster than even that past prime version of Louis? Louis kncoked people cold for minutes mate, for minutes mate not just for the ten count regularly..,do you want me to make a list of Louis KO's where the opponent was rendered decapitated to that of Tyson...just let me know if u want to know..sorry to say Tyson never ever had a jab like Louis no matter what you say about him using it less or not.

My dear fellow, you forget......I've probably seen as much of, if not more of each fighter than you. I've watched both for decades now and study each regularly. My opinion is largely based on what I've seen and also what I've read.

I'm a huge fan of both and enjoy each for their strengths.

My post did say Louis had the better jab, but Tyson's was good (fast, hard and accurate)....if a touch underused, he didn't have quite the reach of Louis but I've seen him knock guys down with it. Julius Francis comes to mind.

As for speed, I thoroughly enjoy Louis's knockout of Walcott.....its an excellent fast combination with deadly accuracy. Is it faster than the combination that knocked out Pinklon Thomas? Probably not. Or Tyson's knockout of Marvis Frazier? Or the first one-two that put Holmes down? Or the first knockdown of Berbick at the beginning of round two. Even when post prime the knockout of Bruno second time round deserves mention.

There is a very small Youtube video of one of Tyson's earliest KOs called

'Tyson 6 punch combination'

I'd rate this highly in terms of pure speed. In fact to be honest many of Tyson's early victims were put away with some very blinding combinations. Any highlight reels will showcase them and theres dozens.

I've read that in terms of sheer handspeed (not power) as can be measured, that the order of significant champions past looks something like this. I might have come across this in 'Champions of the Ring' by Gerald Suster or 'Crown of Thorns', I forget who wrote that one (both early 90s productions).

1) Floyd Patterson (fastest left)
2) Muhammad Ali (fastest right)
3) Mike Tyson
4) Larry Holmes
5) Evander Holyfield
6) Joe Louis

Johnson, Dempsey and Tunney probably should have been rated but flickerfilm (less frames per second) makes it hard to scientifically record these guys' handspeed. Walcott and Charles had quick hands too But I must be honest, fast as Louis was.....and he certainly was, when I watch films of him and films of Tyson there is no doubt in my mind as to who punches harder or faster. Its simply clear to the unbiased observer.

I know you mention cracked vertebrae, that was in relation to Schmelling turning his back into that right to the body when he was on the ropes. You mention that Louis knocked guys out for minutes. Tyson knocked people out for minutes too......especially on the road to world class. Bums? Maybe, but Louis fought a fair share of those too and I cant think of any of his high profile world title wins causing the opponent to be out for several minutes!

I like both guys and I'm not prepared to rubbish either. Louis was the better champion, Tyson the faster, heavier puncher. Thats being as objective as I can be.

[joseph5620]

Since they were different types of KO punchers, I wouldn't argue with either choice. To be honest, I still can't decide. But I am convinced that George Foreman was the hardest puncher to ever step into a boxing ring. Too bad he didn't have Tyson's snap or Louis' perfect timing as well.

You said everything I wanted to say, Scott lol

[ßringer]

Depends on what you want in a puncher.

I think Tyson likely had more raw, explosive power.

But Louis threw the much smoother, cleaner shots, IMO.

[Greatest1942]

My dear fellow, you forget......I've probably seen as much of, if not more of each fighter than you. I've watched both for decades now and study each regularly. My opinion is largely based on what I've seen and also what I've read.

I'm a huge fan of both and enjoy each for their strengths.

My post did say Louis had the better jab, but Tyson's was good (fast, hard and accurate)....if a touch underused, he didn't have quite the reach of Louis but I've seen him knock guys down with it. Julius Francis comes to mind.

As for speed, I thoroughly enjoy Louis's knockout of Walcott.....its an excellent fast combination with deadly accuracy. Is it faster than the combination that knocked out Pinklon Thomas? Probably not. Or Tyson's knockout of Marvis Frazier? Or the first one-two that put Holmes down? Or the first knockdown of Berbick at the beginning of round two. Even when post prime the knockout of Bruno second time round deserves mention.

There is a very small Youtube video of one of Tyson's earliest KOs called

'Tyson 6 punch combination'

I'd rate this highly in terms of pure speed. In fact to be honest many of Tyson's early victims were put away with some very blinding combinations. Any highlight reels will showcase them and theres dozens.

I've read that in terms of sheer handspeed (not power) as can be measured, that the order of significant champions past looks something like this. I might have come across this in 'Champions of the Ring' by Gerald Suster or 'Crown of Thorns', I forget who wrote that one (both early 90s productions).

1) Floyd Patterson (fastest left)
2) Muhammad Ali (fastest right)
3) Mike Tyson
4) Larry Holmes
5) Evander Holyfield
6) Joe Louis

Johnson, Dempsey and Tunney probably should have been rated but flickerfilm (less frames per second) makes it hard to scientifically record these guys' handspeed. Walcott and Charles had quick hands too But I must be honest, fast as Louis was.....and he certainly was, when I watch films of him and films of Tyson there is no doubt in my mind as to who punches harder or faster. Its simply clear to the unbiased observer.

I know you mention cracked vertebrae, that was in relation to Schmelling turning his back into that right to the body when he was on the ropes. You mention that Louis knocked guys out for minutes. Tyson knocked people out for minutes too......especially on the road to world class. Bums? Maybe, but Louis fought a fair share of those too and I cant think of any of his high profile world title wins causing the opponent to be out for several minutes!

I like both guys and I'm not prepared to rubbish either. Louis was the better champion, Tyson the faster, heavier puncher. Thats being as objective as I can be.

My dear fellow chances are very slim you saw more films than I have but still if you want to state it that way I will leave at that...

People exposing their backs is one thing and cracking vertebraes is another, I doubt Tyson could do that...

Bums you say, do you want me to make a list of the career of people Tyson knocked out to that of Louis? You seem to be a very good fellow, but trust me , you won't see what you like neither it will suite this bum agenda.

And another list stating the physical injuries Louis inflicted to that of Tyson? And do you want to hear other people's opinion about the fastest hands at Heavy not just a selected opinion? And yes I do think Louis handspeed vs Walcott was as fast as the Tyson fights you mention...and that was a past prime Louis...I will like you to make me look at a Tyson aged over 30 throwing punches even with remotely the same speed, please do so.

Yes Louis knocked out guys while fighting ranked contenders too. He KO Braddock cold and pushed the mouthpiece through his gum, something which Tyson never did, and no Carlos this has nothing to do with smaller gloves. Smaller gloves makes one cut more doesn't put a hole in your mouth guard.

And mate find something like this Tyson did to just help me feel at ease about your statements in this thread:-
"Ray Arcel said, "Louis drove Uzcudun's teeth right through his mouthpiece.” Veteran referee Arthur Donovan said, “It was the hardest punch I ever saw." So damaging was the blow that 20 minutes later Uzcudun stood up in his dressing to take a shower and fell over. James Braddock said that Louis also drove his teeth through his mouthpiece, "I thought my head had been blown off,"

I know some will call Uzcudun a bum, but here is something for them http://www.*************.com/history...ulino-uzcudun/

Not exactly an easy guy to do what Louis did, like I said mate it will DISSAPOINT you to see the evidence in writing and film, the common careers of opponents etc...Just let me know..or research yourself...I have no doubt you will find it.

Of course to you it would matter what Sugar Ray said :- Sugar Ray vouched that Louis had faster hands than Ali and it came at the speed of light weights...He saw them both. That gives a twist to your list doesn't it? I can give you tons of opinions of others Ron Liptons (which OI also read on a thread about Louis's handspeed).And I can assure you mate to every quote you find of someone in your favour I can very well find two...have no doubt about. I have Ali at #1 in terms of handspeed make no qualms but no way I have Tyson ahead of Louis based on Historians qoutes films etc..You give me one -two vs Holmes I give you the tripple left hooks vs Baer ...I will ask you to me what should a boxing fan pick the left hooks or the one -two...The Louis six punch combo came against Walcott, he landed a great Combo on Conn whom did the six punch combo of Tyson come against?Walcott is one of your favs, of course you know how hard it was to hit him with that long a combo vs that of Tyson's opponents?

Which also makes me remember Tyson's performance against top heavys.Leaving that I move on and see that Tyson never carried his power late, after sixth round he ain't the same...Do you remember who said this? A puncher should be able to put away his opponent at any stage when given the chance, Mike couldn't do so if it went late. Argue all you like.

I didn't want to offend you, but there are certain things written here that I can't agree with. Don't take it personally.


Another thing before I leave off :-
Ring magazine rank Joe Louis #1 and Tyson #15 in their biggest punchers list

[Sugarj]

My dear fellow chances are very slim you saw more films than I have but still if you want to state it that way I will leave at that...

People exposing their backs is one thing and cracking vertebraes is another, I doubt Tyson could do that...

Bums you say, do you want me to make a list of the career of people Tyson knocked out to that of Louis? You seem to be a very good fellow, but trust me , you won't see what you like neither it will suite this bum agenda.

And another list stating the physical injuries Louis inflicted to that of Tyson? And do you want to hear other people's opinion about the fastest hands at Heavy not just a selected opinion? And yes I do think Louis handspeed vs Walcott was as fast as the Tyson fights you mention...and that was a past prime Louis...I will like you to make me look at a Tyson aged over 30 throwing punches even with remotely the same speed, please do so.

Yes Louis knocked out guys while fighting ranked contenders too. He KO Braddock cold and pushed the mouthpiece through his gum, something which Tyson never did, and no Carlos this has nothing to do with smaller gloves. Smaller gloves makes one cut more doesn't put a hole in your mouth guard.

And mate find something like this Tyson did to just help me feel at ease about your statements in this thread:-
"Ray Arcel said, "Louis drove Uzcudun's teeth right through his mouthpiece.” Veteran referee Arthur Donovan said, “It was the hardest punch I ever saw." So damaging was the blow that 20 minutes later Uzcudun stood up in his dressing to take a shower and fell over. James Braddock said that Louis also drove his teeth through his mouthpiece, "I thought my head had been blown off,"

I know some will call Uzcudun a bum, but here is something for them http://www.*************.com/history...ulino-uzcudun/

Not exactly an easy guy to do what Louis did, like I said mate it will DISSAPOINT you to see the evidence in writing and film, the common careers of opponents etc...Just let me know..or research yourself...I have no doubt you will find it.

Of course to you it would matter what Sugar Ray said :- Sugar Ray vouched that Louis had faster hands than Ali and it came at the speed of light weights...He saw them both. That gives a twist to your list doesn't it? I can give you tons of opinions of others Ron Liptons (which OI also read on a thread about Louis's handspeed).And I can assure you mate to every quote you find of someone in your favour I can very well find two...have no doubt about. I have Ali at #1 in terms of handspeed make no qualms but no way I have Tyson ahead of Louis based on Historians qoutes films etc..You give me one -two vs Holmes I give you the tripple left hooks vs Baer ...I will ask you to me what should a boxing fan pick the left hooks or the one -two...The Louis six punch combo came against Walcott, he landed a great Combo on Conn whom did the six punch combo of Tyson come against?Walcott is one of your favs, of course you know how hard it was to hit him with that long a combo vs that of Tyson's opponents?

Which also makes me remember Tyson's performance against top heavys.Leaving that I move on and see that Tyson never carried his power late, after sixth round he ain't the same...Do you remember who said this? A puncher should be able to put away his opponent at any stage when given the chance, Mike couldn't do so if it went late. Argue all you like.

I didn't want to offend you, but there are certain things written here that I can't agree with. Don't take it personally.


Another thing before I leave off :-
Ring magazine rank Joe Louis #1 and Tyson #15

Hi Mate,

I haven't got much time to reply (at work) so I'll be quick:

The punch that injured Schmelling did not look too powerful or concussive. I watched it again for the 000th time yesterday! Its more a point of Schmelling turning his back to Joe and being caught in the wrong area.

Bums: Please review the second to last paragraph of my post. I said that they both fought alot of bums. It was in response to your claim that Louis knocked people cold for minutes, I was demonstrating that this was not in serious world class. Tyson knocked bums out for minutes too.

Sometimes I think you read a post with the red mist down and dont actually assimilate the information.

As for handspeed, its clear to see who is faster. I've got a damn good set of eyes and can see for myself. I've watched just about every available fight of both and do so on a regular basis. There isn't much in it (in handspeed) but Tyson is clearly a shade faster. Louis had other qualities in abundance over Tyson, but in terms of speed its clear.

As for speed when over the age of 30............not an issue here. I'm talking prime for prime..... but just to humour you Tyson did look quick in the second fight with Bruno when 30 in terms of sheer handspeed.

Louis landed great punches on Braddock, fantastic! I doubt that he is the only fighter to damage a gumshield. I might add that the gumshield technology in 1937 was probably inferior to that of 1987.....but I'm not going to diss Louis's finishing punch. I'm a big fan of his.

But if you think that was the hardest punch ever landed, you're kidding yourself. Harder punches have been landed with minimal gumshield damage.

As for your patronising comment about research, I'm no newbie. I've studied the films extensively. I just consider myself an unbiased observer..........not a nuthugger. I'll judge it as I see it.

Back to speed. It doesn't matter what Ray Robinson said Ali is clearly got faster hands. Sorry!

Walcott KO: Very fast no doubt, but those final four punches weren't startlingly fast. I watched it again yesterday. Walcott was very hurt by the earlier right hand, he wasn't going to be too slippery after that.

Conn KO: Not the fastest finishing combo. Just very well calculated.

Triple hooks vs Baer: Hmm, I thought this might come up. Excellent punches shot by a very poor quality camera. The whole Baer film looks a touch speeded up or shot with a lower FPS (frames per second) camera. Not all Louis fights were shot in poor quality I'm glad to say. Doubtless they were rapid punches but I wouldn't choose to use this fight as an example. Hell, Jack Johnson's combinations on Tommy Burns look scintilating in flicker film.

Tyson's power late: What does this have to do with this thread? Any boxing historian worth his salt knows Louis punched well over 15 rounds. Tyson tired in the late rounds. He did look powerful against Jose Ribalta in round 10. Not a relevant point.

As for Ring magazine, of course they rate Louis higher. So do I, I just rate Tyson as slightly the heavier and faster puncher prime for prime. No harm in that matey.

[Greatest1942]

Hi Mate,

I haven't got much time to reply (at work) so I'll be quick:

The punch that injured Schmelling did not look too powerful or concussive. I watched it again for the 000th time yesterday! Its more a point of Schmelling turning his back to Joe and being caught in the wrong area.

Bums: Please review the second to last paragraph of my post. I said that they both fought alot of bums. It was in response to your claim that Louis knocked people cold for minutes, I was demonstrating that this was not in serious world class. Tyson knocked bums out for minutes too.

Sometimes I think you read a post with the red mist down and dont actually assimilate the information.

As for handspeed, its clear to see who is faster. I've got a damn good set of eyes and can see for myself. I've watched just about every available fight of both and do so on a regular basis. There isn't much in it (in handspeed) but Tyson is clearly a shade faster. Louis had other qualities in abundance over Tyson, but in terms of speed its clear.

As for speed when over the age of 30............not an issue here. I'm talking prime for prime..... but just to humour you Tyson did look quick in the second fight with Bruno when 30 in terms of sheer handspeed.

Louis landed great punches on Braddock, fantastic! I doubt that he is the only fighter to damage a gumshield. I might add that the gumshield technology in 1937 was probably inferior to that of 1987.....but I'm not going to diss Louis's finishing punch. I'm a big fan of his.

But if you think that was the hardest punch ever landed, you're kidding yourself. Harder punches have been landed with minimal gumshield damage.

As for your patronising comment about research, I'm no newbie. I've studied the films extensively. I just consider myself an unbiased observer..........not a nuthugger. I'll judge it as I see it.

Back to speed. It doesn't matter what Ray Robinson said Ali is clearly got faster hands. Sorry!

Walcott KO: Very fast no doubt, but those final four punches weren't startlingly fast. I watched it again yesterday. Walcott was very hurt by the earlier right hand, he wasn't going to be too slippery after that.

Conn KO: Not the fastest finishing combo. Just very well calculated.

Triple hooks vs Baer: Hmm, I thought this might come up. Excellent punches shot by a very poor quality camera. The whole Baer film looks a touch speeded up or shot with a lower FPS (frames per second) camera. Not all Louis fights were shot in poor quality I'm glad to say. Doubtless they were rapid punches but I wouldn't choose to use this fight as an example. Hell, Jack Johnson's combinations on Tommy Burns look scintilating in flicker film.

Tyson's power late: What does this have to do with this thread? Any boxing historian worth his salt knows Louis punched well over 15 rounds. Tyson tired in the late rounds. He did look powerful against Jose Ribalta in round 10. Not a relevant point.

As for Ring magazine, of course they rate Louis higher. So do I, I just rate Tyson as slightly the heavier and faster puncher prime for prime. No harm in that matey.

Jose Ribalta TKO'd in 10. On his feet, clear-eyed and complaining when the referee stops it. Retires with a winning record but still suffers 9 KO's in 17 losses and like most Tyson KO victims never beats a top 10 heavyweight.

Have your glasses mended my friend I never said that Louis-Braddock punch was the hardest.You have a knack of twisting others words...find me that quote.. Never...I am extremely sorry to say this but you made this fact out of your ass. Gum technology so it was gold technology too...since Louis broke gold too..No matter what you see about the Schmelling punch that one broke a vertebrae, I will take it vs appearing to break something...Now ofcourse you come up with something like vertrebraes of Schelling were rigged and wasn't so developed ? Childish of you to say it appears and neglect what it actually did.

Moving on, your eyes are your eyes and while you can agree with whatever you see I don't neccessarily agree with you, as you might see from the poll results lots of people don't Sugraj. Please the way you are comparing jabs makes me think you are a bit of nut hugging Tyson.

Question for you do you read posts well? I clearly stated that I think Ali has faster hands. I just posted you to let you I can dig deep and find quotes in my favour too, and Sugar Ray is as good an authority on boxing as any. My intention to bring this up was for your so called facts that you dug up stating handspeed.

The Baer film was okay in speed a slight sped up maybe , can you please stop your tirade and get a good copy...Even if it is slightly sped up surely you can appreciate that making it slower by 10%, that combo is still way faster than normal. Tyson did do some damage yes he might have done more but as I stated before , the injuries Louis inflicted were more severe than Tyson and thats a god damn fact. You stated categorically that Tyson KO'd people for minutes sure he did...But conveniently ignored that louis did it too and did it much often..Forget it I made a mistake of answering you..evidently you don't like it. Why don't you take my challenge mate and make a list of the physical injuries your boy infilcted instead of saying appeared to and all these stuff...Why not make a list against ranked contenders?

Here's a bit of film evidence for well trained eyes when did Tyson launch someone even a 1/4 inch in the air vertically weighing 233 pounds? Louis did.

And about carrying power late, its important may be you didn't read the whole structure...but still yes if you don't want to take this in don't.I have no problems.

Mate I had some good debates with you. And as I stated you can have your opinions but I am not so sure I am going to agree with you. If you get into personal attacks then okay with me. Tyson is your favourite as far I know...Look at the poll results,want to know what the IBRO historians think about this? I will gladly take most of their opinions vs yours NON0BIASED opinion.

Yes if you think Tyson punched harder its okay, I can't disagree much, but don't state that as a fact. Its subjective. As a better poster , you are one of the few who do, but okay. But don't just state that as a fact.

And BUMS :- I said this because no way does Tyson and Louis's pre fight opposition match up...Sorry to bust your biased bubble but facts are facts READ THIS CAREFULLY WITH GLASSES ON:-
Tyson's 27 fight pre-title opposition? 268 CAREER KO LOSSES ! With David Jaco, Steve Zouski,Mike Jameson,Lorenzo Boyd and a few more having LOSING records. Now go and compare them with Louis opposition before ignorantly shouting BUM. Yes they both fought bums, but these bums don't comapre to Louis's..atleast 99% of them had winning records.

Louis's opposition is not world class either but better statistically sure it is.

[Sugarj]

Jose Ribalta TKO'd in 10. On his feet, clear-eyed and complaining when the referee stops it. Retires with a winning record but still suffers 9 KO's in 17 losses and like most Tyson KO victims never beats a top 10 heavyweight.

Have your glasses mended my friend I never said that Louis-Braddock punch was the hardest.You have a knack of twisting others words...find me that quote.. Never...I am extremely sorry to say this but you made this fact out of your ass. Gum technology so it was gold technology too...since Louis broke gold too..No matter what you see about the Schmelling punch that one broke a vertebrae, I will take it vs appearing to break something...Now ofcourse you come up with something like vertrebraes of Schelling were rigged and wasn't so developed ? Childish of you to say it appears and neglect what it actually did.

Moving on, your eyes are your eyes and while you can agree with whatever you see I don't neccessarily agree with you, as you might see from the poll results lots of people don't Sugraj. Please the way you are comparing jabs makes me think you are a bit of nut hugging Tyson.

Question for you do you read posts well? I clearly stated that I think Ali has faster hands. I just posted you to let you I can dig deep and find quotes in my favour too, and Sugar Ray is as good an authority on boxing as any. My intention to bring this up was for your so called facts that you dug up stating handspeed.

The Baer film was okay in speed a slight sped up maybe , can you please stop your tirade and get a good copy...Even if it is slightly sped up surely you can appreciate that making it slower by 10%, that combo is still way faster than normal. Tyson did do some damage yes he might have done more but as I stated before , the injuries Louis inflicted were more severe than Tyson and thats a god damn fact. You stated categorically that Tyson KO'd people for minutes sure he did...But conveniently ignored that louis did it too and did it much often..Forget it I made a mistake of answering you..evidently you don't like it. Why don't you take my challenge mate and make a list of the physical injuries your boy infilcted instead of saying appeared to and all these stuff...Why not make a list against ranked contenders?

Here's a bit of film evidence for well trained eyes when did Tyson launch someone even a 1/4 inch in the air vertically weighing 233 pounds? Louis did.

And about carrying power late, its important may be you didn't read the whole structure...but still yes if you don't want to take this in don't.I have no problems.

Mate I had some good debates with you. And as I stated you can have your opinions but I am not so sure I am going to agree with you. If you get into personal attacks then okay with me. Tyson is your favourite as far I know...Look at the poll results,want to know what the IBRO historians think about this? I will gladly take most of their opinions vs yours NON0BIASED opinion.

Yes if you think Tyson punched harder its okay, I can't disagree much, but don't state that as a fact. Its subjective. As a better poster , you are one of the few who do, but okay. But don't just state that as a fact.

And BUMS :- I said this because no way does Tyson and Louis's pre fight opposition match up...Sorry to bust your biased bubble but facts are facts READ THIS CAREFULLY WITH GLASSES ON:-
Tyson's 27 fight pre-title opposition? 268 CAREER KO LOSSES ! With David Jaco, Steve Zouski,Mike Jameson,Lorenzo Boyd and a few more having LOSING records. Now go and compare them with Louis opposition before ignorantly shouting BUM. Yes they both fought bums, but these bums don't comapre to Louis's..atleast 99% of them had winning records.

Louis's opposition is not world class either but better statistically sure it is.

Good Lord,

It takes a long time to reply to every point and I dont have much time.

I complimented the Braddock punch. It was great, it broke a gum shield. I dont doubt that other gumshields have been broken in the passage of time. People have had jaws broken, lost teeth, have had nasty tongue and lip damage. Jack Johnson removed Ketchel's teeth! Was Johnson a much harder puncher than Louis? I dont think there was much in it.

On the subject of Schmelling's spinal injury, neither of us are spinal surgeons. The punch is what it is! It didn't look terrifying, but it was in a dubious area. Childish has nothing to do with it.

I dont know why you mentioned that Robinson thought Louis had faster hands than Ali, when you then went on to say that you think Ali had faster hands. Perculiar. As you know, I think Ali had faster hands.

I've got a good copy of the Baer film, its the big fights Inc copy. The one you'll also find on You Tube. Its just a touch speeded up, I dont think a better one exists.

The poll concerns who is the 'better puncher'. 2 thirds favour Louis. I've said in my very first post on the thread that it is a close call. I just favour Tyson's slight speed and power advantage. Others may prefer the accuracy and economy of Louis, no hard feelings for Louis voters.

I've said on this thread that Louis had the better jab. Read it if you will.

I didn't ignore that Louis knocked people cold, I know he did, I've seen him do it hundreds of times. I just said that Tyson did it too.

Nuthugging Tyson? Naa, read my last paragraph of my last post. I rate Louis higher! Am I being the 'ass' here?

Nothing personal, I like you and your posts and I'm sure I agree with you on many subjects.

Tyson fought bums, Louis fought bums. I'm not comparing records and non of my posts did. My posts about bums concerns people who were knocked out cold by each fighter. Of course Louis has the better resume and record. My posts concern punching.