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  • #11
    Originally posted by the unknown View Post
    Robinson ducked Charley Burley.

    Yes, but even Burley said that if he were in Robinson's shoes he would have done the same thing as Robinson had nothing to gain and everything to lose.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post

      Yes, but even Burley said that if he were in Robinson's shoes he would have done the same thing as Robinson had nothing to gain and everything to lose.
      It still doesn't excuse him. Burley deserved a shot and he didn't get it.

      Had Burley been in Robinson's shoes and he's the one that did the ducking, the fault would be on him too.

      It's a duck.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by the unknown View Post
        It still doesn't excuse him. Burley deserved a shot and he didn't get it.

        Had Burley been in Robinson's shoes and he's the one that did the ducking, the fault would be on him too.

        It's a duck.
        Burley was never #1 contender during Robinsons reign plus there was others who he could get more money from.

        It was a duck as he increased the demand on the fight (same with the Cocoa Kid) but it's not like Burley was at the top of his game.
        Last edited by NChristo; 09-17-2010, 02:22 PM.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by NChristo View Post
          Burley was never #1 contender during Robinsons reign plus there was others who he could get more money from.

          It was a duck as he increased the demand on the fight (same with the Cocoa Kid) but it's not like Burley was at the top of his game.
          Everyone knew that Burley was a serious threat to Robinson and that he could've beaten him. Robinson and his team wanted none of it.

          The money excuse isn't good. Robinson fought plenty of lower class fighters for probably a lot less money. He could've given Burley just one fight, but he knew how good Burley was.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by the unknown View Post
            Everyone knew that Burley was a serious threat to Robinson and that he could've beaten him. Robinson and his team wanted none of it.

            The money excuse isn't good. Robinson fought plenty of lower class fighters for probably a lot less money. He could've given Burley just one fight, but he knew how good Burley was.
            Lower class fighters for a lot less money is right, because they were lower level fighters. If the risk is greater then so should the money, right ?.

            Like I said Burley wasn't the #1 contender and was far from the top of his game, I'm not saying he didn't duck him, he did, he could of gave him the fight but increased the demand to match the risk.

            Let's have a look at Ray's title reign and Burleys activity during these years.

            Ray's career / title reign
            1946
            Tommy Bell W15

            1947
            Bernie Miller TKO3
            Freddie Wilson KO3
            Eddie Finazzo TKO4
            Georgie Abrahams W10
            Jimmy Doyle TKO8
            Sammy Secret KO1
            Flashy Sebastian KO1
            Calif. Jackie Wilson TKO7
            Billy Nixon TKO6

            1948
            Ossie Harris W10
            Henry Brimm W10
            Bernard Docuson W15
            Kid Gavilan W10
            Bobby Lee W10

            1949
            Young Gene Buffalo KO1
            Henry Brimm D10
            Bobby Lee W10
            Don Lee W10
            Earl Turner TKO8
            Freddie Flores TKO 3
            Cecil Hudson KO5
            Kid Gavilan W15
            (after that competed at Middleweight)

            Burleys career in these years
            (He was at Middleweight during these years)
            1946
            Charley Dodson TKO3
            Paulie Peters TKO2
            Billy Smith W10
            Charley Banks W10
            Bert Lytell W10

            1947
            Bert Lytell L10
            Larry Cartwright WKO7

            1948
            Battling Black Jack KO3

            1949
            Charley 'Doc' Williams L10
            Willie Wright W8

            Then Burley had 4 more fights and retired in 1950.


            After 1946 Burley was a full Middleweight who was taking on Middleweights and Light Heavies, if anyone truly ducked him it was Tony Zale who was the Middleweight champ at the time.
            Last edited by NChristo; 09-17-2010, 02:49 PM.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by the unknown View Post
              It still doesn't excuse him. Burley deserved a shot and he didn't get it.

              Had Burley been in Robinson's shoes and he's the one that did the ducking, the fault would be on him too.

              It's a duck.
              I halfheartedly agree with you. But if you have nothing to offer financially, there is no public cry for the fight and you can't make a legitimate push for it I see no reason to make the fight. He could have made it, but he was never obligated to. As much as we all would have liked for it to happen, boxing is business first. This isn't like Ray giving up his title to avoid him, or being stripped for not fighting him. In hindsight its easy to say he should have fought him. At the time it wasn't nearly that simple.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by NChristo View Post
                Lower class fighters for a lot less money is right, because they were lower level fighters. If the risk is greater then so should the money, right ?.

                Like I said Burley wasn't the #1 contender and was far from the top of his game, I'm not saying he didn't duck him, he did, he could of gave him the fight but increased the demand to match the risk.

                Let's have a look at Ray's title reign and Burleys activity during these years.

                Ray's career / title reign
                1946
                Tommy Bell W15

                1947
                Bernie Miller TKO3
                Freddie Wilson KO3
                Eddie Finazzo TKO4
                Georgie Abrahams W10
                Jimmy Doyle TKO8
                Sammy Secret KO1
                Flashy Sebastian KO1
                Calif. Jackie Wilson TKO7
                Billy Nixon TKO6

                1948
                Ossie Harris W10
                Henry Brimm W10
                Bernard Docuson W15
                Kid Gavilan W10
                Bobby Lee W10

                1949
                Young Gene Buffalo KO1
                Henry Brimm D10
                Bobby Lee W10
                Don Lee W10
                Earl Turner TKO8
                Freddie Flores TKO 3
                Cecil Hudson KO5
                Kid Gavilan W15
                (after that competed at Middleweight)

                Burleys career in these years
                (He was at Middleweight during these years)
                1946
                Charley Dodson TKO3
                Paulie Peters TKO2
                Billy Smith W10
                Charley Banks W10
                Bert Lytell W10

                1947
                Bert Lytell L10
                Larry Cartwright WKO7

                1948
                Battling Black Jack KO3

                1949
                Charley 'Doc' Williams L10
                Willie Wright W8

                Then Burley had 4 more fights and retired in 1950.


                After 1946 Burley was a full Middleweight who was taking on Middleweights and Light Heavies, if anyone ducked him it was Tony Zale who was the Middleweight champ at the time.
                It doesn't matter what position he was ranked. He was still a serious, and probably the biggest, threat to Robinson.

                Robinson didn't only compete at middleweight after 1949. In between the Tommy Bell fight and the last Kid Gavilan fight, he had 19 fights where he weighed in within the middleweight limit.

                That's basically 19 opportunities where he could've fought Burley.

                He could've easily had a non-title fight with him and, if he lost, give Burley a shot at the title.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by the unknown View Post
                  It doesn't matter what position he was ranked. He was still a serious, and probably the biggest, threat to Robinson.

                  Robinson didn't only compete at middleweight after 1949. In between the Tommy Bell fight and the last Kid Gavilan fight, he had 19 fights where he weighed in within the middleweight limit.

                  That's basically 19 opportunities where he could've fought Burley.

                  He could've easily had a non-title fight with him and, if he lost, give Burley a shot at the title.
                  Still a serious / biggest problem for the Welterweight title yet he was a full fledged Middleweight who lost 2 of 5 fights in Ray's title years ? (The Tommy Bell fight was at the very end of 46'), Burley was not what he used too be, still very skilled, but just not what he was, again, I'm not saying Ray didn't duck him because he did by increasing the demand but you're making it seem like Burley was the 'man' at the time and that Ray absolutely had to fight him despite the circumstances.

                  Oh and welcome to the forum.
                  Last edited by NChristo; 09-17-2010, 03:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by NChristo View Post
                    Still a serious / biggest problem for the Welterweight title yet he was a full fledged Middleweight who lost 2 of 5 fights in Ray's title years ? (The Tommy Bell fight was at the very end of 46'), Burley was not what he used too be, still very skilled, but just not what he was, again, I'm not saying Ray didn't duck him because he did by increasing the demand but you're making it seem like Burley was the 'man' at the time and that Ray absolutely had to fight him despite the circumstances.

                    Oh and welcome to the forum.
                    That was just during the time period that you mentioned. Even before Robinson got a title shot, he had quite a number of fights where Robinson weighed in within the middleweight limit. These fights took place when Burley was at the top.

                    It doesn't matter if Burley was avoided by other fighters, as well. It still doesn't excuse Robinson. So if you're not denying that Robinson did duck him, as you say, then there's no need to try and defend him.

                    And thank you.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by the unknown View Post
                      That was just during the time period that you mentioned. Even before Robinson got a title shot, he had quite a number of fights where Robinson weighed in within the middleweight limit. These fights took place when Burley was at the top.

                      It doesn't matter if Burley was avoided by other fighters, as well. It still doesn't excuse Robinson. So if you're not denying that Robinson did duck him, as you say, then there's no need to try and defend him.

                      And thank you.
                      Thought you was only arguing about Ray ducking him once he had the title which would make more sense, but anyway back to OP.

                      Armstrong and Zivic was in no rush to fight Burley, Williams or Cocoa Kid either.

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