Ali overated??? i dont think so...

[dmar]

excellent post..first ali yes was an all time great..no doubt..overated..if i had to make a list he would be number 1..i dont like fantasy fights ..thats just me..but ali had problems with all who fought with a style like rocky..frazier spinks cooper bonevena etc..he did the most magnificent job of promoting himself..im the greatest..a hero to the media..hyped by the media like larry merchant who at that time new zero about figters..ditto norman mailer..alis the best of his era..thats all you can ask a fighter to be..he had too many awfull performances to be called the greatest..henry cooper at 185 lbs koed him..yes..angelo dundee saves him via cut glove so ali gets a 6-7 miute rest..he was done..see the film clips.the bell saves him..a bum spinks 8 pro fights and had a drawe in those 8.goes 30 rounds and holds him even..weak chin no defence no puncer at all..a swarming style backs ali up for 30 rounds and staggers him..jimmy young beat him..ron lyle a slow mover out boxed him for 10 rounds..fight stoped when kyle played possum not hurst..evangelista may of won that fight..ali did zero to get desision.decked by sonny banks he wins on cuts..out of shape in many fights..awfull against chuck weapner..EGADS..ditto mac foster joe bugner jimmy ellis ..yes the best of his era..which was a good era..thats all you can say or ask..pep robinson greb armstrong and others yes greater..

i forgot kenny norton who destroys him in fight 1..and beats him in a lousy fight in fight 3 ali gets the nod..

[abright1]

Pre-suspension Ali an inside-the-ring true great...BUT

post-suspension Ali just like Ray-Leonard's whole career..."all sizzle" media phenomenon aided by gift decisions (Norton beat him AT LEAST two of the 3 fights...sit down and watch them, forgetting that one of them is a famous big name)

pre-susp-Ali...the real deal all-time great
post-susp-Ali...a R.Leonard-like media-stunt-pulling/media-assisted poser (very good boxers but not all-time greats IN-the-ring)...DLH was great...now going to milk rest of his "career" using the R-L formula

[ricecrispi]

Ali is not overrated. He was a great fighter even if he lost 3-4 more fights. He was not the greatest, Sugar Ray was, is, and may always be.

As why many people consider him for being overated.

Ali hyping himself. So what if he did? It made him exciting and got people's attention. Now it seems charismatic because he won many of the fights. People see him as the greatest because he called himself that. In fact, back in the 60-70's, many people didn't like how brash he was and his bragging. People couldn't wait for Ali to be beat, he was a loud mouth disrespectful black not like Joe Louis. Look back in the 60's-70's racial landscape, it could've come a better time and his action transcended boxing history into America history. He ends up looking like a genius.

Media hyping him. Yeah they are. They hype him like crazy because these writers often see clips and highlights. Most sports journalist do that and have this retinal image burned into there head. The greatness in the ring runs over into real life. The media over the 20 years have polished the Ali image because the media never tells the story from two sides of the coin. They make it one way or the other. Bleek and depressing or all cheery and heroic and great like they do with Ali. It's easy to paint a good picture when a guy calls himself the greatest and wins most of his fights on paper. They cast Sonny Liston, Frazier, and Foreman as these these great villians for the greatest to defeat. Look at the Michael Mann movie with Will Smith and you see this image of Ali everyone is getting fed. I was being brain wash and so is the rest of america.

Fights. Ali had great fights that he won, close ones he could've lost or win, and fights he should've been impressive but wasn't. Ali was honestly on the recieving end of many close decisions.
BTW the Cooper fight has no 7-8 min rumored delay dmar. Actual footage proves the delay it was a 1 min delay with a look at the glove and a regular rest period. Some video retaled problems. Ali was playing with his opponent but the bell saved him for sure.
Everyfighter has a weakness and Ali was swarmers. Ali need room to operate and extend his power. He was a horrible infighter. In the fights were he looked bad, Ali was 35+ vs Spinks, Evangelista, Norton II, Young, Lyle. He fought 15 years in the ring and was on the recieving end of benefits on decisions. For every bad performance he gave us 2-3 good ones.

[abright1]

Pre-Suspension vs. Post-Suspension

Two completely different animals...and must be evaluated separately. Pre-suspension IN-the-ring..One of the All-time greats any way you slice it (like LW Duran)...Post-suspension Ali also an all-time great but mostly for OUT-of-the-ring (ambassadorial, career-management pioneering, etc.) reasons...received FAR-TOO-MANY gift decisions for that. Admittedly pulled off one amazing tactical stunt (vs. the monster Foreman) in that period worthy of lore...

Don't confuse the two Ali's and you'll remember him properly.

Don't confuse the two an

[ricecrispi]

I disagree on the two part evaulatin of Ali's career. I think it is more of a 3 part career some fighter's have vs the common 2 part career during the prime and after the prime type.

Ali had a pre-suspension in his prime period, post suspension slightly past his prime period, and 35+ over the hill Ali that should've quite. I think the 35+ past his prime should be after Thrilla in Manilla Frazier III fight. Another example is Holyfield.

[DPUMA8]

Wow. I read a lot of these posts and it seems many have a bias towards Rocky Marciano by saying he is so great and can beat Ali. I have to say that Marciano was great for his time but would lose to Ali (I dislike Ali too). I do not think that a 185 pound guy that does not have a great guard can beat an Ali. I do not think that Marciano can beat Lennox Lewis or Holyfield either. He is too small and heavyweights are a little too big, quick, and strong for Marciano.

[hellfire508]

Muhammad Ali is not overrated. His blinding speed of hand and foot at heavyweight was phenonenmal, and allowed him to lack in the fundamentals and fight like a technical boxer - aka Joe Louis. He could adapt to fight conditions, and absorb an insane amount of punches. He was almost impossible to knock out because of his natural reflexes to avoid getting hit - "hands cant hit what the eyes cant see"....and even if you could hit him, he just took it and talked to you. His mind games tore his opponents apart as well as any Sonny Liston or Mike Tyson. The quality of opposition is second to none, and his confidence made him duck NOBODY. However it is probably his undying self belief that led to his inevitable demise in his last couple of fights, that happens to everyone, especially one who relies on speed and reflexes as their primary weapon. He beat 3 top 10 heavyweights (all-time), plus at least 10-15 other top 50s (all-time).

What a fighter....what a man.

[hellfire508]

Dmar: Henry cooper gave Ali no trouble, likewise with Bonavena. In the Bonavena fight, I had Ali winning 12 rounds out of 14. And just becuase a MONSTER left hook from Cooper knocked Ali down, doesnt mean he really troubled him. ali was up like lightning and annihalated Cooper in the fifth round, with the worst beating in such a short time that ive ever witnessed. Second fight was just another beating for 6 rounds.

The two that gave Ali trouble were Frazier and Norton. He lost to Frazier in the first fight, and im willing to bet that EVERY heavyweight in history with the exception of Sonny Liston and George Foreman (styles) would have lost to Frazier on that night. But lets not forget, Ali won two out of three against Frazier. Same with Norton, he won two out of three (despite probably losing the third, but he was so over-the-hill its ridiculous). A prime Ali would have dealt with Norton a lot better, and probably same with Frazier. However I think the Frazier from the first fight would have beaten a prime Ali, very tough to say though, as Ali wasnt dancing.

Marciano-Ali would be a very interesting fight, and we can disregard that awful computer fight. I think Ali would win a comfortable decision over MArciano 4 times out of 5. He had the two handed power that Frazier didnt have, however he didnt have the speed or the defence that Frazier had, and that would leave him more vulnerable to a terrible beating from Ali. Infact the more I think of it, the more i see a late stoppage for Ali. Not a knock out, but a stoppage from the beating Ali would give Marciano - aybe 13th round. MArciano had amazing stamina and power, but I just cant see him nullifying the size and speed disadvantage. Plus, Marciano didnt apply the same relentless pressure Frazier did, nor did he have the jab Norton did. He was a great, great fighter no doubt, but head to head with Ali, he just doesnt win.

I have studied ALOT of Ali footage, and i mean ALOT. Ive seen over 20 (off top of my head) Joe Louis fights, and I still cant see Louis beating Ali. Louis IMO beats most heavies head to head, but Ali just had the right style for Louis. Louis was flat footed, not moving much, and relied on his power and accuracy to destroy his opponents. Billy Conn troubled Louis with his speed and boxing, but Conn was a LHW by today's standards, was no where near as tall or as fast as Ali. Ali had an 83" reach that would pick apart Louis from a distance. Louis' primary weapon was his power combination punching that was laser accurate. Ali said it best ----- responding to Cus D'Mato saying he (Ali) couldnt handle Joe Louis' combination punching. "There wont be any combination punching, if Joe Louis hit me once Im gonna move".
And thats exactly right. Ali was so fast, he could be hit once, but he was never hit by a combination except when he was rope-a-doping. Louis would land nothing but single shots all night, and there wouldnt even be many of them. Louis is tailor made for Ali.

Basically what im trying to say is, head to head, Ali beats every heavyweight in history in my honest, non-biased opinion. Sometimes I am biased for Ali - because he is so damn good - but honestly, in all seriousness, nobody beats Ali head to head IMO.

[ricecrispi]

Ali should've lost to Frazier twice but on paper once. III thrilla in Manilla was a dead tie of a fight. It wasn't Ali beating Joe, it was a matter of will and who could last the longest in that fight. Ali won the mind games again.
You should see Ali pretending not to be winded and dehydrated in the corner that last round. Ali was looking at Joe saying I rather die then quit against you. All Joe had to do was stand up and Ali would've caved.
But you never know with Ali, he might have fought anyways.

vs Norton, Ali won a fight he should've lost clearly. Ali didn't look sharp and was hurt several times and wasn't as effective his other fights.

Ali in his prime was unbeatable. He moved like a ballerina, hit hard in single punchs and in combinations. He's combo's were blistering fast for a heavyweight and had plenty of pop. He had a stiff single, double, triple jab and with movement was hard to hit. He got you to overextend with your punchs trying to hit him and leave you off balance when you tried to hit when he tilted back. You would get winded following him around the ring. Liston was known for a great jab and had trouble land on Ali. The government and the Army. What do they have against black heavyweights? Why they always messing it with them?

[hellfire508]

Ali should've lost to Frazier twice but on paper once. III thrilla in Manilla was a dead tie of a fight. It wasn't Ali beating Joe, it was a matter of will and who could last the longest in that fight. Ali won the mind games again.
You should see Ali pretending not to be winded and dehydrated in the corner that last round. Ali was looking at Joe saying I rather die then quit against you. All Joe had to do was stand up and Ali would've caved.
But you never know with Ali, he might have fought anyways.

vs Norton, Ali won a fight he should've lost clearly. Ali didn't look sharp and was hurt several times and wasn't as effective his other fights.

Ali in his prime was unbeatable. He moved like a ballerina, hit hard in single punchs and in combinations. He's combo's were blistering fast for a heavyweight and had plenty of pop. He had a stiff single, double, triple jab and with movement was hard to hit. He got you to overextend with your punchs trying to hit him and leave you off balance when you tried to hit when he tilted back. You would get winded following him around the ring. Liston was known for a great jab and had trouble land on Ali. The government and the Army. What do they have against black heavyweights? Why they always messing it with them?

Ali was destroying Frazier in the third fight. Especially in the 13th and 14th rounds. Punch after punch was landed flush, people feared for Fraziers health. Ali was winnning the fight CLEARLY. And if Joe got up, can you really see Muhammad Ali staying on his stool? I cant.