Sam Langford>>>Muhammad Ali?

[frankenfrank]

Good post apart from this ^, Johnson was not the Heavyweight champion when they fought and Langford actually had more fights then Johnson when they fought.

Langford was outweighed by quite a bit though.

You just failed to understand my post. Johnson was the reigning champion when he avoided Langford , not when he outpointed him.

[Toney616]

Look at their fights' outcomes against Norton , Frazier and Chuvalo and remember the reasons for Foreman's "loss" against Ali for explanation . If you fail understanding that explanation then keep considering it unexplained.

Ali has wins over Liston*2, Patterson*2,Norton*2 and Frazier*2 and Foreman. Foreman cant compete with those wins. As for the fight in Zaire, why cant you let that stuff go? How many times do the guys here have to prove you wrong on that?

If you really wanted to know what happened in Zaire, then you would go and read what Archie Moore had to say about it. He was in Foreman's corner

[GoogleMe]

I consider Langford a borderline top 10 Heavyweight. Yet the man started his career at Welterweight, even fought for the Welterweight title to a draw which reports seem to favor him in.

Ali on the other hand is a borderline greatest Heavyweight ever. He did very well against guys much bigger than him. He struggling a lot against the smaller Heavyweights. He was a Light Heavyweight in the Olympics, and I don't believe he could have been top 10 ATG Light Heavyweight material if he stayed at that weight. His skills were simply much better suited for larger men. He relied on speed and conditioning too much, and he never threw body punches. Those things would have hurt him dramatically at LHW.

Langford on the other hand, great at whatever weight class he fought in.

Sorry, I'm just not agreeing with the fact that: he was fighting much bigger guys.
So a NFL DE should complain about the o-line being bigger? No way, that's the name of the game HW. Whey what you want! There's ups and downs on both being big and being small. It's who uses it to his advantage. If those guys are so small, then fight at LHW for gods sake. You can't blame fighters for other peoples lack.

[frankenfrank]

Sorry, I'm just not agreeing with the fact that: he was fighting much bigger guys.
So a NFL DE should complain about the o-line being bigger? No way, that's the name of the game HW. Whey what you want! There's ups and downs on both being big and being small. It's who uses it to his advantage. If those guys are so small, then fight at LHW for gods sake. You can't blame fighters for other peoples lack.

He was the best MW and LHW of his time but this combined with his race is why he was avoided by the champions (including the HW champions) and had to fight at weights as high as HW just to find world level opponents to fight against.

[frankenfrank]

Ali has wins over Liston*2, Patterson*2,Norton*2 and Frazier*2 and Foreman. Foreman cant compete with those wins.

This was a good one , a leading candidate for joke of the week award.
In my post you quoted I did not try to list all of Foreman's wins , just his wins against fighters who shortened Ali's career and beat him.
Also Ali does not have 2 wins against Norton , only on paper he has.
Not to mention Ali's "wins" against Frazier , Chuvalo and Norton are nothing like Foremans' successful hunting journeys against them.
Patterson ? why didn't you list Ali's huge win over Archie Moore .
And I watched his fight against Doug Jones recently , Ali did not beat him.

As for the fight in Zaire, why cant you let that stuff go? How many times do the guys here have to prove you wrong on that?

If you really wanted to know what happened in Zaire, then you would go and read what Archie Moore had to say about it. He was in Foreman's corner

Watched the fight 3 times , Ali used the ropes in a critical way , this and holding and hitting behind the head.

[Tyson.]

****** thread.

Ali is the greatest period.

[GoogleMe]

He was the best MW and LHW of his time but this combined with his race is why he was avoided by the champions (including the HW champions) and had to fight at weights as high as HW just to find world level opponents to fight against.

Don't get me wrong. I find Ali to be a bit overrated. Sam were a true champion. Fighting his way up, HE were a small Hw, can't argue with that.
But he steps up in competition. It's his own choice, no one called him out.
So he shouldn't be awarded anymore with wins in the division then other.

[frankenfrank]

Don't get me wrong. I find Ali to be a bit overrated. Sam were a true champion. Fighting his way up, HE were a small Hw, can't argue with that.
But he steps up in competition. It's his own choice, no one called him out.
So he shouldn't be awarded anymore with wins in the division then other.

This is where you fail to get the difference between P4P and H2H.
Sam does deserve more credit for his wins in a P4P sense.
However , in the H2H sense , I don't rate him higher than Ali.

When the question is who was greater between 2 fighters it means who was greater in the P4P sense , and many times the 2 compared fighters are not from the same division so P4P is the only reasonable way to consider the question , or otherwise it would have been decided most of the times by tale of the tape alone.

[Obama]

Sorry, I'm just not agreeing with the fact that: he was fighting much bigger guys.
So a NFL DE should complain about the o-line being bigger? No way, that's the name of the game HW. Whey what you want! There's ups and downs on both being big and being small. It's who uses it to his advantage. If those guys are so small, then fight at LHW for gods sake. You can't blame fighters for other peoples lack.

What are you getting at? In no way did I suggest Langford should be regarded better at HW. He however should be regarded better p4p. He was great at WW, MW, LHW, and HW. Who the hell can say that? Nobody. Ezzard Charles can claim 3. Langford is the only man who can claim all 4. Some guys were very good at the 4 and maybe even a 5th, but Langford is the only guy who was great at all 4.

[Obama]

One more thing. Anyone giving a 140 lb Sam Langford a hard time for not being interested in fighting the 220 lb James J. Jeffries should be shot. Shot. to. death. Period.