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[BennyST]

If we had seen Margrito and Cotto move along together and then finish careers without fighting each other, you'd say Cotto is better cause he has the higher 'perceived' skillset....I'm still not sure where that ****** term comes from.....'skillset'....sounds like some wank business/political term.

But, it's not true. Margarito beats Cotto every time they fight. Does it mean he's better? No. Does it mean he has the higher 'skillset'? I don't know. Depends what you call skillset.

There is no way of properly calling any of that stuff. However, you can base greatness of skills etc on everything, because in the end, that's all that counts. If Cotto and Margrito have a very similar career opponent wise then what's to tell them apart? You'd say 'skillset' and I'd say "Margarito nearly killed Cotto". To me, a 'skillset' means **** all in that case and it doesn't mean Cotto is the better guy.

Everything goes hand in hand and skillset doesn't mean **** if you can't use it to beat guys.

[frankenfrank]

Are you sure about that? How about this fight in the middle of his long title reign just before fighting Toney? Does that make you feel better?

Again , who is Julian Leterlough ? why should I watch such a mismatch ?
I did watch these 2 rounds now , but when thinking of a fighter one considers his performance against his better opponents plus his losses , this is why it is prime for prime in debates.
Post these to TGA the next time he writes "Jirov used his face as his defense". And what you did is really similar to what TGA does 95% of his time which is to portray fighter the way they were not.
Just like he showcased Joey Maxim could punch you showcased Vasily Jirov could box , but against who ?

Anyway.....How many of his fights have you seen? That is how Jirov fought for his whole career bar a few major fights.

Not many really : just the Toney , Tarver #2 (amateur) , and Alex Gonzales
(I got it by mistake when I searched for his amateur fight against Julio Cesar Gonzales ) .

But you still proved nothing because those performances you posted were against nobodies

A fighter is defined by his whole career. Not one or two fights as you seem so keen on showing. See, this is why some people think of Hagler as a slugger, because they saw him against Leonard and Hearns...and maybe Duran and Mugabi. His entire career of sixty of whatever fights was done as a counter puncher, boxer, jab heavy.....he fought like a brawler in a few fights when he was older and slower.

Do you know he had about sixty other fights!?

A fighter is remembered for his performances against his better opponents plus his relevant (and for the wrong reasons also for his irrelevant) losses.

Didn't Hagler also stop Ray Seals quickly in their last encounter ?
Maybe he started as a counter puncher or whatever (which also led him to his losses and his more embarrassing performances , but Hagler at his best was closer to a brawler than anything else . Do you think the Hagler who lost to Willy Monroe or drew with Ray Seals could have gotten rid of Hearns the same way he did ?

[TheGreatA]

I can't recall saying that about Jirov. Never called Joey Maxim a puncher either.

[frankenfrank]

I can't recall saying that about Jirov. Never called Joey Maxim a puncher either.

Not my fault I can not search for my first posts here.
You claimed it twice about him , not once , one of them was here.
And you did not call Joey Maxim a puncher but you did post a thread called : "who said Joey Maxim couldn't punch ?" with a video of him punching some nobody.

[frankenfrank]

What?

Ok, so you think someone who brawls is a slugger now? You think that a few fights equals a whole career? So, Morales is a slugger? Pacquiao is a slugger? Duran is a slugger? Even Mayweather is a slugger if he we go on his 130 career. Whitaker is a slugger because he had some serious slugfests in his time.

Sorry man, but I just don't get where you're coming from.....

I still don't know much about Morales , Pacquiao and Mayweather so no wonder I did not claim anything about them.
Duran ? watched his fights against Hearns , Barkley , Leonard #1 (not sure) , maybe one more fight , not much really.
But Bowe loved to brawl , just like Ibeabuchi , maybe boxed a little more , because he had more range .

[TheGreatA]

Not my fault I can not search for my first posts here.
You claimed it twice about him , not once , one of them was here.
And you did not call Joey Maxim a puncher but you did post a thread called : "who said Joey Maxim couldn't punch ?" with a video of him punching some nobody.

It was just to gather attention as Maxim is well-known for being feather-fisted. He didn't knock out a nobody either, it was the light heavyweight champion of the world Freddie Mills that he was punching around. You should know these things.

I didn't find any posts of me saying that about Jirov. Maybe I've said it and it's not very far from the truth to be honest. Jirov was a well-taught boxer but I believe he was at his best as the body breaking pressure fighter.

[frankenfrank]

If we had seen Margrito and Cotto move along together and then finish careers without fighting each other, you'd say Cotto is better cause he has the higher 'perceived' skillset....I'm still not sure where that ****** term comes from.....'skillset'....sounds like some wank business/political term.

But, it's not true. Margarito beats Cotto every time they fight. Does it mean he's better? No. Does it mean he has the higher 'skillset'? I don't know. Depends what you call skillset.

There is no way of properly calling any of that stuff. However, you can base greatness of skills etc on everything, because in the end, that's all that counts. If Cotto and Margrito have a very similar career opponent wise then what's to tell them apart? You'd say 'skillset' and I'd say "Margarito nearly killed Cotto". To me, a 'skillset' means **** all in that case and it doesn't mean Cotto is the better guy.

Everything goes hand in hand and skillset doesn't mean **** if you can't use it to beat guys.

Margachito hurt Cotto and Cintron the way he did because of his loaded gloves , which were the source of his punching effectiveness and self belief.
One can believe in oneself more when one knows of one's hidden advantage .
If Mosley fought the loaded version of Margachito and gotten battered as well , people like yourself would have claimed that Margachito beats Mosley every time they fight.
Of course skillset is not everything , there are physical advantages such as size , health , etc.

[frankenfrank]

It was just to gather attention as Maxim is well-known for being feather-fisted. He didn't knock out a nobody either, it was the light heavyweight champion of the world Freddie Mills that he was punching around. You should know these things.

I didn't find any posts of me saying that about Jirov. Maybe I've said it and it's not very far from the truth to be honest. Jirov was a well-taught boxer but I believe he was at his best as the body breaking pressure fighter.

Searching in your posts will not yield it because it was in February/March and you can only find your last 500 posts.
You did write it once in ESB and once here , and judging by the Toney fight it was almost totally true , so I did not argue about it , all my problem was yours and almost everyone else' underrating of Jirov.

Freddie Mills was the reigning LHW champion of the world at the time Maxim KO'd him but a search through his record yielded the question : "who did he ever beat ?" the immediate answer : "Gus Lenevich of course" but further search yielded that Mills was stopped by Lenevich before finally outpointing the older man. Mills was stopped by every good fighter he ever fought , and he did not fight many of them , did he ?

[TheGreatA]

Searching in your posts will not yield it because it was in February/March and you can only find your last 500 posts.
You did write it once in ESB and once here , and judging by the Toney fight it was almost totally true , so I did not argue about it , all my problem was yours and almost everyone else' underrating of Jirov.

I have not made such a claim on boxingscene atleast since the search result for my posts on "Jirov" did not have anything about him using his face as defense. ESB doesn't have a working search function so I could not search for it. But it doesn't matter either way, I just did not recall making such a claim.

Freddie Mills was the reigning LHW champion of the world at the time Maxim KO'd him but a search through his record yielded the question : "who did he ever beat ?" the immediate answer : "Gus Lenevich of course" but further search yielded that Mills was stopped by Lenevich before finally outpointing the older man. Mills was stopped by every good fighter he ever fought , and he did not fight many of them , did he ?

He was a champion though, wasn't he? That's something that over 90% of boxers cannot claim. Thus he was hardly a "nobody". I never said anything about whether he was a great champion or not. He was the champion though, and that is deserving of respect.

[frankenfrank]

I have not made such a claim on boxingscene atleast since the search result for my posts on "Jirov" did not have anything about him using his face as defense. ESB doesn't have a working search function so I could not search for it. But it doesn't matter either way, I just did not recall making such a claim.

So maybe it searches only within your last 500.
You did write it twice.
And there is still a way of using the old search function in ESB , you can find a link to a thread that shows it in my thread of important threads there.

He was a champion though, wasn't he? That's something that over 90% of boxers cannot claim. Thus he was hardly a "nobody". I never said anything about whether he was a great champion or not. He was the champion though, and that is deserving of respect.

So he is not a nobody for you. Good for you.