Is Sonny Liston A Top 10 ATG Heavyweight?

[Obama]

great Top 10 List identical to my own.. excellent post leaves me nothing to add

poet, you make want to re-think your top 10 list, assuming he also meant order of the list...

[SBleeder]

I believe so. Here's my top 10 HW list:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Marciano
4. Foreman
5. Holmes
6. Dempsey
7. Liston
8. Bivins
9. Frazier
10. Johnson

If it weren't for Clay/Ali, Liston would have held the title until he retired. Perhaps a young George Foreman could have beaten an old Sonny Liston. Liston murders Frazier at any age.

[Poet682006]

poet, you make want to re-think your top 10 list, assuming he also meant order of the list...

Funny thing is, Louis is my all-time favorite fighter while I don't particularly like Ali on a personal level. I'm simply convinced from watching the fights that Ali was the best ever at Heavyweight and I can't let my personal disdain for him get in the way of an objective evaluation. I would LOVE for someone to be able to convince me that Louis was better than Ali but as yet no one has been able to do it

Poet

[DarkTerror88]

Definietly

And Poet, I think Louis ranks higher than Ali based purely on how dominant he was for a long period of time and how long he was title holder. I also think Joe has the tools to beat any heavyweight in history. As long as he gets a round or 2 or 3 to figure them out. Or he can start fast and take em out with his power like in the 2nd schmeling fight. Also the fact the Ali often didnt take his opponent too seriously. (Ali-Frazier 1, Ali Norton 1, and Ali Spinks 1) It cost him a W. But sometime Ws dont mean anything. Overall i rank Joe higher based on how dominant he was for a long time

[Poet682006]

Definietly

And Poet, I think Louis ranks higher than Ali based purely on how dominant he was for a long period of time and how long he was title holder. I also think Joe has the tools to beat any heavyweight in history. As long as he gets a round or 2 or 3 to figure them out. Or he can start fast and take em out with his power like in the 2nd schmeling fight. Also the fact the Ali often didnt take his opponent too seriously. (Ali-Frazier 1, Ali Norton 1, and Ali Spinks 1) It cost him a W. But sometime Ws dont mean anything. Overall i rank Joe higher based on how dominant he was for a long time

The way I rate fighters though is by their in-ring abilities TEMPERED by their resume.....so while Louis' extended period of dominance does count in my book, it's one of a number of factors considered.

I agree that Louis has the tools to beat anyone.....as a general rule I believe any ATG fighter is cabable of beating any other ATG fighter in his weight class on any given night provided their isn't a prohibitive style matchup which are rare (think Foreman vs. short-armed pressure fighters). I think in terms of "if they fought 10, 100, 1,000 times who would come out on top". To my mind, Ali's inhuman speed and reflexes in his prime gives him the edge over any Heavyweight in history including Louis. That being said, it's close in my mind: If they fought 100 times I would expect Ali to edge it by somewhere around a 55-45 margin.

Poet

[DarkTerror88]

The way I rate fighters though is by their in-ring abilities TEMPERED by their resume.....so while Louis' extended period of dominance does count in my book, it's one of a number of factors considered.

I agree that Louis has the tools to beat anyone.....as a general rule I believe any ATG fighter is cabable of beating any other ATG fighter in his weight class on any given night provided their isn't a prohibitive style matchup which are rare (think Foreman vs. short-armed pressure fighters). I think in terms of "if they fought 10, 100, 1,000 times who would come out on top". To my mind, Ali's inhuman speed and reflexes in his prime gives him the edge over any Heavyweight in history including Louis. That being said, it's close in my mind: If they fought 100 times I would expect Ali to edge it by somewhere around a 55-45 margin.

Poet

I see where your coming from with alis speed and reflexes makes it dangerous for Louis' preferred counterpunch method, but in 100 fights I can see it going anyother way from Ali winning Majority of fights to Louis winning the majority of fights.

I think it literally is too close to call between these two. But you have a very good list.

My list is
1) Louis
2) Ali (paperthin margin for #1)
3) Jack Johnson
4) Foreman
5) Frazier
6) Liston
7) Dempsey
8) Marciano
9) Holmes
10) depends. Sometimes is Walcott sometimes it's Charles Sometimes it's Norton, Jeffries Etc.

[turdleburgle]

I dont know why everyone thinks Liston is so great,to me Patterson was made in order and it was an easy fight for Liston,so outside those two wins whatelse does he have to his resume? couple a decent fighters and thats it.I think the first fight with ali exposed him as a fighter,not because he lost but because of the way he went out.He was a bully who wanted out when things wernt going his way.I dont think the rematch was anything other than Liston looking for another way out either.


If ali had never existed I think eventually a ellis or quarry or a frazier would have beaten him.

[Poet682006]

I see where your coming from with alis speed and reflexes makes it dangerous for Louis' preferred counterpunch method, but in 100 fights I can see it going anyother way from Ali winning Majority of fights to Louis winning the majority of fights.

I think it literally is too close to call between these two. But you have a very good list.

My list is
1) Louis
2) Ali (paperthin margin for #1)
3) Jack Johnson
4) Foreman
5) Frazier
6) Liston
7) Dempsey
8) Marciano
9) Holmes
10) depends. Sometimes is Walcott sometimes it's Charles Sometimes it's Norton, Jeffries Etc.

My 5 through 12 get shuffled alot depending on what I thinking on a given day. 1 through 4 are the only ones I've never changed in 25 some odd years since I've been ranking fighters

Poet

[Poet682006]

I dont know why everyone thinks Liston is so great,to me Patterson was made in order and it was an easy fight for Liston,so outside those two wins whatelse does he have to his resume? couple a decent fighters and thats it.I think the first fight with ali exposed him as a fighter,not because he lost but because of the way he went out.He was a bully who wanted out when things wernt going his way.I dont think the rematch was anything other than Liston looking for another way out either.

Ever heard of Cleveland Williams? Eddie Machen? Zora Folley? Nino Valdez?

If ali had never existed I think a ellis or quarry or a frazier would have beaten him.

That's because you aren't thinking in the first place. Ellis and Quarry would never have beaten Liston and Frazier was as made to order for Sonny as he was for Foreman.

Poet

[Schmerzen]

If ali had never existed I think eventually a ellis or quarry or a frazier would have beaten him.

what makes u think they could do a better job than patterson against the big bad bear?