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  • #11
    Originally posted by GameGod View Post
    I'll add the overhand punch, thanks for the ideas and suggestions. However, in what way is a cross different from a straight?
    Straight goes through your opponents guard or the most direct path to the head / body.

    Cross is a counter which goes over the opponents lead hand / jab
    (Left arm / shoulder or right arm / shoulder depending on if they're orthodox or southpaw).
    Last edited by NChristo; 07-23-2010, 07:52 AM.

    Comment


    • #12
      Originally posted by NChristo View Post
      Straight goes through your opponents guard or the most direct path to the head / body.

      Cross is a counter which goes over the opponents lead hand / jab
      (Left arm / shoulder or right arm / shoulder depending on if they're orthodox or southpaw).
      Good karma for you. Most people don't know the difference; I've even heard trainers use the terms interchangeably.

      And I'll take Tommy Hearns for the straight right. Will add more later but need to go now.

      Comment


      • #13
        I'm with you Gamegod. I think given enough time then certain fighters will dominate in certain attributes if enough people reply:

        I'll go with Tommy Hearns for the straight right too!

        Comment


        • #14
          Originally posted by NChristo View Post
          Straight goes through your opponents guard or the most direct path to the head / body.

          Cross is a counter which goes over the opponents lead hand / jab
          (Left arm / shoulder or right arm / shoulder depending on if they're orthodox or southpaw).
          Thanks for clearing that up; I've added more punches to the list.

          Originally posted by Sugarj View Post
          I'm with you Gamegod. I think given enough time then certain fighters will dominate in certain attributes if enough people reply:

          I'll go with Tommy Hearns for the straight right too!
          Thanks, and I think your choice for straight right is a fine one. Like you said, a core group of fighters will probably dominate each separate section.

          Comment


          • #15
            Taking a while to do so I'll just post what I've got so far and edit as I go along, will probably change a few too.

            Tools:

            * Durability -Battling Nelson
            * Hand Speed - Meldrick Taylor
            * Foot Speed - Muhammad Ali
            * Reflexes - Roy Jones Jr
            * Size & Build -
            * Stamina - Rocky Marciano
            * Athleticism - Roy Jones Jr
            * Overall Talent - Eder Jofre

            Skills:

            * Head Movement -
            * Body Movement - Pernell Whitaker
            * Footwork -
            * Defense - Nicolino Locche
            * Ring Generalship - Carlos Monzon
            * Body Punching - Carlos Palomino
            * Balance - Pernell Whitaker
            * Longevity - Archie Moore
            * Use of Reach Advantage - Tommy Hearns
            * Use of Height Advantage -


            Styles:

            * Boxing Ability
            * Swarming Ability - Joe Frazier
            * Slugging Ability - George Foreman
            * In-Fighting Ability - Roberto Duran
            * Mid-Range Ability - Joe Louis
            * Long-Range Ability - Thomas Hearns
            * Counterpunching Ability - Wilfred Benitez


            Punching and Dodging:

            * Overall Strength -
            * One-Punch Power - Julian Jackson
            * General Punch Power -
            * Accuracy - Joe Louis
            * Timing -
            * Straightness of Punches - Alexis Arguello
            * Variety of Offensive Arsenal - Sugar Ray Robinson
            * Dodging - Nicolino Locche


            Punches:

            * Left Hook - Joe Frazier
            * Right Hook - Marvin Hagler
            * Left Cross
            * Right Cross
            * Left Straight
            * Right Straight - Tommy Hearns
            * Overhand - Tim Witherspoon
            * Uppercut - Rid**** Bowe
            * Jab - Sonny Liston


            Mental:

            * Mental Strength -
            * Chin - Marvin Hagler
            * Endurance -
            * Heart - Joe Frazier
            * Desire -
            * Killer Instinct - Joe Louis
            * Work Rate -
            * Intimidation - Sonny Liston
            * Consistency -
            * Hard Training - Marvin Hagler
            * Conditioning - Ken Norton
            * Mental Game -
            * Game Planning - Sugar Ray Leonard
            * Trainer Bonus -


            Extras:

            * Pre-Fight Mind Games - Muhammad Ali
            * In-Fight Mind Games - Jack Johnson
            * Media Savvy - Chris Eubank (lol)
            * Charisma - Sugar Ray Leonard
            * PPV Buys - Muhammad Ali
            Last edited by NChristo; 07-25-2010, 05:39 PM.

            Comment


            • #16
              I don't know enough about the older fighters (really before the 60's) to judge all time, but I'll do post-1960 for these ones.
              Tools:
              • Durability: Marvin Hagler
              • Hand Speed: Meldrick Taylor
              • Foot Speed: Muhammad Ali
              • Reflexes: Roy Jones, Jr.
              • Size & Build: Juan Urango (Weird, I know, but he looks like a Light Heavyweight at Junior Welter)
              • Stamina: Julio Cesar Chavez
              • Athleticism: Roy Jones, Jr.
              • Overall Talent: Roy Jones, Jr.


              Skills:
              • Head Movement: Pernell Whitaker
              • Body Movement: Pernell Whitaker
              • Footwork: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
              • Defense: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
              • Ring Generalship: Roberto Duran
              • Body Punching: Gerard McClellan
              • Balance: Manny Pacquiao


              Styles:
              • Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker): Floyd Mayweather
              • Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson): Mike Tyson (Honorable Mention: Manny Pacquiao)
              • Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan): George Foreman
              • In-Fighting Ability: Roberto Duran
              • Mid-Range Ability: Mike Tyson
              • Long-Range Ability: Muhammad Ali
              • Counterpunching Ability: Floyd Mayweather


              Punching and Dodging:
              • Overall Strength: George Foreman
              • One-Punch Power: Julian Jackson
              • General Punch Power: Thomas Hearns
              • Accuracy: Felix Trinidad
              • Timing: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
              • Straightness of Punches: Don't Know
              • Variety of Offensive Arsenal: Manny Pacquiao
              • Dodging: Pernell Whitaker


              Mental:
              • Mental Strength: Julio Cesar Chavez
              • Chin: Marvin Hagler
              • Endurance: Antonio Margarito
              • Heart: Evander Holyfield
              • Desire: Julio Cesar Chavez
              • Killer Instinct: Roberto Duran
              • Work Rate: Antonio Margarito
              • Intimidation: Sonny Liston


              Extras:
              • Pre-Fight Mind Games: Muhammad Ali
              • In-Fight Mind Games: Roy Jones, Jr.
              • Media Savvy: Sugar Ray Leonard
              • Charisma: Muhammad Ali
              Last edited by BigStereotype; 07-24-2010, 01:10 AM.

              Comment


              • #17
                Originally posted by NChristo View Post
                Taking a while to do so I'll just post what I've got so far and edit as I go along, will probably change a few too.

                Tools:

                * Durability -Battling Nelson
                * Hand Speed - Meldrick Taylor
                * Foot Speed - Muhammad Ali
                * Reflexes - Roy Jones Jr
                * Size & Build
                * Stamina - Rocky Marciano
                * Athleticism - Roy Jones Jr
                * Overall Talent - Eder Jofre

                Skills:

                * Head Movement
                * Body Movement - Pernell Whitaker
                * Footwork
                * Defense - Nicolino Locche
                * Ring Generalship - Carlos Monzon
                * Body Punching - Carlos Palomino
                * Balance - Pernell Whitaker


                Styles:

                * Boxing Ability

                * Swarming Ability - Joe Frazier
                * Slugging Ability - George Foreman
                * In-Fighting Ability - Roberto Duran
                * Mid-Range Ability - Joe Louis
                * Long-Range Ability - Thomas Hearns
                * Counterpunching Ability - Wilfred Benitez


                Punching and Dodging:

                * Overall Strength -
                * One-Punch Power - Julian Jackson
                * General Punch Power -
                * Accuracy - Joe Louis
                * Timing -
                * Straightness of Punches - Alexis Arguello
                * Variety of Offensive Arsenal - Sugar Ray Robinson
                * Dodging - Nicolino Locche


                Punches:

                * Left Hook - Joe Frazier
                * Right Hook
                * Left Cross
                * Right Cross
                * Left Straight
                * Right Straight - Tommy Hearns
                * Overhand - Tim Witherspoon
                * Uppercut - Rid**** Bowe
                * Jab - Sonny Liston


                Mental:

                * Mental Strength
                * Chin
                * Endurance
                * Heart - Joe Frazier
                * Desire
                * Killer Instinct - Joe Louis
                * Work Rate
                * Intimidation - Sonny Liston


                Extras:

                * Pre-Fight Mind Games - Muhammad Ali
                * In-Fight Mind Games - Jack Johnson
                * Media Savvy
                * Charisma - Sugar Ray Leonard
                Thanks, those are nice and complete answers which I would call solid.

                Originally posted by BigStereotype View Post
                I don't know enough about the older fighters (really before the 60's) to judge all time, but I'll do post-1960 for these ones.
                Tools:
                • Durability: Marvin Hagler
                • Hand Speed: Meldrick Taylor
                • Foot Speed: Muhammad Ali
                • Reflexes: Roy Jones, Jr.
                • Size & Build: Juan Urango (Weird, I know, but he looks like a Light Heavyweight at Junior Welter)
                • Stamina: Julio Cesar Chavez
                • Athleticism: Roy Jones, Jr.
                • Overall Talent: Roy Jones, Jr.


                Skills:
                • Head Movement: Pernell Whitaker
                • Body Movement: Pernell Whitaker
                • Footwork: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
                • Defense: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
                • Ring Generalship: Roberto Duran
                • Body Punching: Gerard McClellan
                • Balance: Manny Pacquiao


                Styles:
                • Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker): Floyd Mayweather
                • Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson): Mike Tyson (Honorable Mention: Manny Pacquiao)
                • Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan): George Foreman
                • In-Fighting Ability: Roberto Duran
                • Mid-Range Ability: Mike Tyson
                • Long-Range Ability: Muhammad Ali
                • Counterpunching Ability: Floyd Mayweather


                Punching and Dodging:
                • Overall Strength: George Foreman
                • One-Punch Power: Julian Jackson
                • General Punch Power: Thomas Hearns
                • Accuracy: Felix Trinidad
                • Timing: Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
                • Straightness of Punches: Don't Know
                • Variety of Offensive Arsenal: Manny Pacquiao
                • Dodging: Pernell Whitaker


                Mental:
                • Mental Strength: Julio Cesar Chavez
                • Chin: Marvin Hagler
                • Endurance: Antonio Margarito
                • Heart: Evander Holyfield
                • Desire: Julio Cesar Chavez
                • Killer Instinct: Roberto Duran
                • Work Rate: Antonio Margarito
                • Intimidation: Sonny Liston


                Extras:
                • Pre-Fight Mind Games: Muhammad Ali
                • In-Fight Mind Games: Roy Jones, Jr.
                • Media Savvy: Sugar Ray Leonard
                • Charisma: Muhammad Ali
                Thanks, you're the first person to give an answer for every category although you didn't attempt the seperate punch categories. For the Post-1960s era, these are solid choices, although mine date back to about 1920 (Dempsey and later); I don't really rate people before that because I believe that before that Boxing was genuinely evolving at a fast rate, while there has been less of that in the last 40 years or so. Therefore, Jack Johnson wouldn't stand a chance against modern-day Heavyweights, but Joe Louis could beat most or all of them.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Tools:
                  Durability: Sugar Ray Robinson
                  Hand Speed: Sugar ray Robinson
                  Foot Speed: Pernell Whitaker
                  Reflexes: Pernell Whitaker
                  Size & Build: Bernard Hopkins
                  Stamina: Joe Calzaghe
                  Athleticism: Floyd Mayweather
                  Overall Talent: Floyd Mayweather


                  Skills:
                  Head Movement: Pernell Whitaker
                  Body Movement: Pernell Whitaker
                  Footwork: Pernell Whitaker
                  Defense: Floyd Mayweather
                  Ring Generalship: Bernard Hopkins
                  Body Punching: Miguel Cotto
                  Balance: Pernell Whitaker


                  Styles:
                  Boxing Ability:Floyd Mayweather
                  Swarming Ability: Mike Tyson
                  Slugging Ability: Arturo Gatti
                  In-Fighting Ability: Joe Frazier
                  Mid-Range Ability: Ray Leonard
                  Long-Range Ability: Pernell Whitaker
                  Counterpunching Ability: Floyd Mayweather


                  Punching and Dodging:
                  Overall Strength: Ernie Shavers
                  One-Punch Power: Mike Tyson
                  General Punch Power: Mike Tyson
                  Accuracy: Floyd Mayweather
                  Timing: Bernard Hopkins
                  Straightness of Punches: Floyd Mayweather
                  Variety of Offensive Arsenal: Sugar Ray Robinson
                  Dodging: Pernell Whitake

                  Punches:
                  Left Hook: Joe Frazier
                  Right Hook: Mike Tyson
                  Right Cross: Bernard Hopkins
                  Right Straight: Tommy Hearns
                  Left Uppercut: Zab Judah
                  Right Uppercut: Rid**** Bowe
                  Left Jab: Winky Wright
                  Right Jab: Sonny Liston

                  Mental:
                  Mental Strength: Muhammad Ali
                  Chin: Ali
                  Endurance: Ali
                  Heart: Joe Frazier
                  Desire:Miguel Cotto
                  Killer Instinct: Mike Tyson
                  Work Rate: Paul Williams
                  Intimidation: Mike Tyson

                  Extras:
                  Pre-Fight Mind Games: Muhammad Ali
                  In-Fight Mind Games: Pernell Whitaker
                  Media Savvy: Muhammad Ali
                  Charisma: Muhammad Ali

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Tools:
                    • Durability
                      H2H : McCall , P4P : Toney
                    • Hand Speed
                      Roy Jones
                    • Foot Speed
                      Manny Pacquiao
                    • Reflexes
                      Roy Jones
                    • Size & Build
                      Build : Jersey Joe Walcott , Frank Bruno , Evander Holyfield
                    • Stamina
                      Muhammad Ali , Rocky Marciano , Larry Holmes
                    • Athleticism
                      Roy Jones , Ray Leonard
                    • Overall Talent
                      James Toney


                    Skills:
                    • Head Movement
                      James Toney
                    • Body Movement
                      James Toney
                    • Footwork
                    • Defense
                      Chris Byrd , Ronald Wright
                    • Ring Generalship
                      Ali , Roy Jones
                    • Body Punching
                      Vassily Jirov , Mike McCallum
                    • Balance


                    Styles:
                    • Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
                    • Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
                    • Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
                    • In-Fighting Ability
                      Hagler , Toney , Holyfield , Hopkins
                    • Mid-Range Ability
                      Tyson , Tua
                    • Long-Range Ability
                      Lewis , Hearns , Wladimir Klitschko
                    • Counterpunching Ability
                      Roy Jones


                    Punching and Dodging:
                    • Overall Strength
                      H2H : Foreman
                    • One-Punch Power
                      H2H : Tua
                      P4P : Julian Jackson
                    • General Punch Power
                      H2H : Foreman , Tua , Tyson ,
                      P4P : Pacquiao , Hagler , Jackson ,
                    • Accuracy
                      Toney , Montell Griffin
                    • Timing
                      Roy Jones
                    • Straightness of Punches
                      H2H :Vitali , Wladimir , Lewis , Ali , Holmes ,
                      P4P : Toney , Griffin , Qawi , Shavers
                    • Variety of Offensive Arsenal
                      Tyson , Toney , Bowe
                    • Dodging
                      Toney , Byrd , Orlin Norris (I haven't seen Whitaker , Locche and Floyd fight yet , but also remember that while Norris and Byrd avoided big opponents' which may not have been fast , they were much heavier themselves than the
                      expected choice for a defensive wizard)


                    Punches:
                    • Left Hook
                      Tua
                    • Right Hook
                    • Left Cross
                    • Right Cross
                      Toney
                    • Left Straight
                    • Right Straight
                      Shavers
                    • Left Uppercut
                    • Right Uppercut
                      Lewis , Bowe , Tyson
                    • Left Jab
                      H2H : Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko , Lewis , Holmes , Ali
                      P4P : Toney , McCallum , Griffin
                    • Right Jab
                      Wright
                    • Overhand
                      Toney


                    Mental:
                    • Mental Strength
                      Holyfield , Toney
                    • Chin
                      McCall , Toney
                    • Endurance
                      Ali
                    • Heart
                      Holyfield , Toney
                    • Desire
                      Holyfield
                    • Killer Instinct
                      Tyson , Foreman
                    • Work Rate
                      Frazier
                    • Intimidation
                      Foreman , Tyson


                    Extras: Sylvester Stalone by far :yep:
                    • Pre-Fight Mind Games
                    • In-Fight Mind Games
                    • Media Savvy
                    • Charisma


                    The last few wouldn't make much of a difference to fights but they can definitely help.

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      I've just added 6 Mental fields: Consistency, Hard Training, Conditioning, Mental Game (meaning how hard they think and strategize in the ring), Game Planning (how good their game plans for each opponent are, and how well they stick to this plan) and Trainer Bonus (how well they listen to what their trainers have to say and adapt to that).
                      I've also added 3 Skill fields: Longevity (how well they can maintain a high level of ability into their mid-to-late thirties), Use of Reach Advantage and Use of Height Advantage.

                      I've also added one Extra field: PPV Buys (meaning how many PPV buys the fighter did compared over eras, so that inflation is compensated for in your analysis).

                      What do you guys think of me adding fields outside the fighter's immediate control but which do effect their careers and statuses, such as Adversary (who the fighters' great opponents, which help them define their greatness, are - e.g. for Ali, there was Frazier and Foreman; just give the one fighter of all-time P4P who you would call the best "adversary" and put him here), Trainer (the best trainer of all-time), etc.? I would add these if you said they were good ideas.

                      Originally posted by frankenfrank View Post
                      Tools:
                      • Durability
                        H2H : McCall , P4P : Toney
                      • Hand Speed
                        Roy Jones
                      • Foot Speed
                        Manny Pacquiao
                      • Reflexes
                        Roy Jones
                      • Size & Build
                        Build : Jersey Joe Walcott , Frank Bruno , Evander Holyfield
                      • Stamina
                        Muhammad Ali , Rocky Marciano , Larry Holmes
                      • Athleticism
                        Roy Jones , Ray Leonard
                      • Overall Talent
                        James Toney


                      Skills:
                      • Head Movement
                        James Toney
                      • Body Movement
                        James Toney
                      • Footwork
                      • Defense
                        Chris Byrd , Ronald Wright
                      • Ring Generalship
                        Ali , Roy Jones
                      • Body Punching
                        Vassily Jirov , Mike McCallum
                      • Balance


                      Styles:
                      • Boxing Ability (BOXING skills – people good at boxing, e.g. Mayweather, Whitaker)
                      • Swarming Ability (SWARMING skills – people good at swarming, e.g. Dempsey, Tyson)
                      • Slugging Ability (SLUGGING skills – people good at slugging, e.g. Foreman, McClellan)
                      • In-Fighting Ability
                        Hagler , Toney , Holyfield , Hopkins
                      • Mid-Range Ability
                        Tyson , Tua
                      • Long-Range Ability
                        Lewis , Hearns , Wladimir Klitschko
                      • Counterpunching Ability
                        Roy Jones


                      Punching and Dodging:
                      • Overall Strength
                        H2H : Foreman
                      • One-Punch Power
                        H2H : Tua
                        P4P : Julian Jackson
                      • General Punch Power
                        H2H : Foreman , Tua , Tyson ,
                        P4P : Pacquiao , Hagler , Jackson ,
                      • Accuracy
                        Toney , Montell Griffin
                      • Timing
                        Roy Jones
                      • Straightness of Punches
                        H2H :Vitali , Wladimir , Lewis , Ali , Holmes ,
                        P4P : Toney , Griffin , Qawi , Shavers
                      • Variety of Offensive Arsenal
                        Tyson , Toney , Bowe
                      • Dodging
                        Toney , Byrd , Orlin Norris (I haven't seen Whitaker , Locche and Floyd fight yet , but also remember that while Norris and Byrd avoided big opponents' which may not have been fast , they were much heavier themselves than the
                        expected choice for a defensive wizard)


                      Punches:
                      • Left Hook
                        Tua
                      • Right Hook
                      • Left Cross
                      • Right Cross
                        Toney
                      • Left Straight
                      • Right Straight
                        Shavers
                      • Left Uppercut
                      • Right Uppercut
                        Lewis , Bowe , Tyson
                      • Left Jab
                        H2H : Vitali Klitschko , Wladimir Klitschko , Lewis , Holmes , Ali
                        P4P : Toney , McCallum , Griffin
                      • Right Jab
                        Wright
                      • Overhand
                        Toney


                      Mental:
                      • Mental Strength
                        Holyfield , Toney
                      • Chin
                        McCall , Toney
                      • Endurance
                        Ali
                      • Heart
                        Holyfield , Toney
                      • Desire
                        Holyfield
                      • Killer Instinct
                        Tyson , Foreman
                      • Work Rate
                        Frazier
                      • Intimidation
                        Foreman , Tyson


                      Extras: Sylvester Stalone by far :yep:
                      • Pre-Fight Mind Games
                      • In-Fight Mind Games
                      • Media Savvy
                      • Charisma


                      The last few wouldn't make much of a difference to fights but they can definitely help.
                      For the Extras, I meant for boxers, not for film-makers.
                      Also, what difference does Head-to-Head make? What does that even mean in the context of this?
                      Oh, wait; if Head-to-Head means in terms of raw ability (not Pound-for-Pound), then I think I should just clarify that we're looking for the top Pound-for-Pound in each category, not Head-to-Head (if this is the meaning of H2H).
                      Last edited by GameGod; 07-25-2010, 07:11 AM.

                      Comment

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