Roy Jones vs James Toney: How could Toney of won this?

[SplitSecond]

See the discussion of blind punches, I believe Toney had more raw power.

funny you say that considering toney virtually doesn't throw unless it's a counter, and counters are effective because they catch the person unexpectingly, while they are open and as you say, blind



now show us a lead punch that toney's opponent braced for similar to jones in the above video and still got ko'd

edit: note that tate went 12 hard rounds with julian jackson, he has only ever been ko'd once, guess by who

[mikeyh1015]

lol ... toney would have never WON. RJJR couldn't be BEAT in HIS prime. All HAil the GOAT!!!!!

[SplitSecond]

I think it is, look how his ability to hurt guys fell off despite his hand speed being relatively consistent past prime. Without his legs he just couldn't give the same angles. Power should be the last thing to leave you, and he used to knock guys dead.

you can thank his legs and the higher weights for that

edit: you can also thanks the carrying style he adopted later in his career

[Miburo]

So a prime Hopkins lost to a green Taylor?

That was many fights and years later. However, I think Hopkins could have clearly won both of those fights if he had simply been more active early (plenty of people including myself think he was jobbed in at least one of the fights as well).

[Miburo]

funny you say that considering toney virtually doesn't throw unless it's a counter, and counters are effective because they catch the person unexpectingly, while they are open and as you say, blind

Effective in what sense? Only if you mean to seriously hurt the guy, not just score (scoring through openings is the real purpose of countering, the rest is just a bonus). And most importantly, Toney's counter rights come from normal angles you anticipate punches coming from, unlike with Jones - that hook would come up almost from the knees sometimes.

[Toney616]

I think it is, look how his ability to hurt guys fell off despite his hand speed being relatively consistent past prime. Without his legs he just couldn't give the same angles. Power should be the last thing to leave you, and he used to knock guys dead.

He tended to "carry" guys as well
Out of interest which fighters to do have in mind who lasted the distance with Jones?

[Toney616]

On Topic:
Could some one here give me a basic breakdown of the strategies Griffen and Johnson used aginst Jones?

[Sugarj]

Griffin would walk into range feigning attack, then would take a couple of steps back just as Roy was setting himself to punch. This was frustrating for Jones as he was being forced to be the aggressor, but Griffin was catching Roy with some nasty counters and a tidy double and triple jab seemingly whenever Roy lost patience and forced forward. It was a very energy efficient performance by Griffin and an excellent gameplan. It lead to a fairly even contest for six/seven rounds or so from memory. Roy was also less effective from the ropes.....again due to some very good counterpunching.

I forget what round it was....maybe the seventh when Roy started to dominate, I think he dropped Griffin. It was only a matter of time before Roy had him in trouble again but this time he hit Griffin whilst he was down. Result: A disqualification loss.


As for Glen Johnson, his gameplan was pressure, lots of body punches. Roy appeared low on confidence after the Tarver knockout and seemed pretty weak (again) at 175lbs. Johnson had Roy for long periods on the ropes, Roy of course was smirking as usual and did show some nice combination work and counters but his workrate was alarmingly low and his usually excellent footwork was lacking. He was down on points going into the 9th from memory and got clipped by a lethal right hand which left Roy on the canvas for.......a long time!!

[Toney616]

Griffin would walk into range feigning attack, then would take a couple of steps back just as Roy was setting himself to punch. This was frustrating for Jones as he was being forced to be the aggressor, but Griffin was catching Roy with some nasty counters and a tidy double and triple jab seemingly whenever Roy lost patience and forced forward. It was a very energy efficient performance by Griffin and an excellent gameplan. It lead to a fairly even contest for six/seven rounds or so from memory. Roy was also less effective from the ropes.....again due to some very good counterpunching.

I forget what round it was....maybe the seventh when Roy started to dominate, I think he dropped Griffin. It was only a matter of time before Roy had him in trouble again but this time he hit Griffin whilst he was down. Result: A disqualification loss.


As for Glen Johnson, his gameplan was pressure, lots of body punches. Roy appeared low on confidence after the Tarver knockout and seemed pretty weak (again) at 175lbs. Johnson had Roy for long periods on the ropes, Roy of course was smirking as usual and did show some nice combination work and counters but his workrate was alarmingly low and his usually excellent footwork was lacking. He was down on points going into the 9th from memory and got clipped by a lethal right hand which left Roy on the canvas for.......a long time!!

Thanks for this
Do you think it was possible for Toney to execute the Johnson strategy?

[Sugarj]

To be honest the Johnson strategy executed by Johnson himself wouldn't have worked with prime Roy (circa 1994), but it was perfect for the post Ruiz Roy.

Toney wasn't an aggressive, pressuring volume puncher. Such a strategy requires a ridiculous level of fitness...........never Toney's strength. Toney was a master craftsman, who liked to pick his spots and work at his own pace. I cant see any version Toney winning this one at super middleweight.