Roy Jones vs James Toney: How could Toney of won this?

**Miburo** · 07-01-2010, 03:25 PM

First some corrections:

Power: Toney. Jones' power came entirely from speed, catching opponents with blind punches.
Skillset: Are you kidding me? Toney, by far - Jones' skill was his athleticism.

He could have won by taking it seriously - not being weight drained and training properly for the fight. Toney looked sluggish, that was his biggest issue as against Jones' speed it's a death sentence. It would still have been close though.

**Sugarj** · 07-01-2010, 03:27 PM

Well for the second time today I have posted that I dont think any super middleweight in history would have likely beaten 1994 Roy Jones. I'm not a nuthugger, but his skills back then were terrifying!

A lucky punch is always possible, but back then even Roy's chin was pretty decent.

That said, Toney may well have been weight drained, I could see a better prepared Toney giving a finer account of himself. But his best bet would have been to drive Roy to the ropes and keep him there as best as possible.....even then, Roy was so good at covering up and countering. Bryant Brannon gave this idea a go and failed miserably. Of course Toney was in a different league to Brannon, but he would have needed some fantastic conditioning to have a chance. It wasn't his style and conditioning wasn't really Toney's thing!

**prinzemanspopa** · 07-01-2010, 03:40 PM

That's right everyone,Toney was unmotivated and underprepared for the biggest fight of his life against the greatest fighter he ever fought.

He was motivated to pull out dem 'slick african american skills' against a faded,weight drained,limited brawler in Iran barkley,but Roy Jones? Nah......He just didn't train.

Roy Jones was on a greater level than Toney.

**Sugarj** · 07-01-2010, 03:44 PM

I'm not too blown away by Tengoshi's corrections:

I would probably edge Toney for power too, but this was a close run thing. Roy's power was down to a number of factors including timing and accuracy. His speed was amazing, but speed without technique, leverage and the obvious mass (mass x acceleration equalling force) doesn't knock guys spark out.........or in the case of poor Virgil Hill, leave you wincing in pain with a suspected broken rib!

Skillset: I dont think I've seen a finer skillset than prime Jones. Accuracy, jab, some of the finest combinations ever witnessed, the ability to fight orthodox and southpaw, defensive smarts, setting traps, the ability to fight coming forward or going back, amateur pedigree. Athleticism is not skillset! Roy's weakness was his lack of basic, classical boxing fundamentals. His reliance on reflex rather than to keep his hands up and block. But no one should confuse his unorthodox style with a lack of skillset...........just a lack of fundamentals, its not the same thing.

Roy had everything except the sort of defense that can keep you out of trouble when reflexes fade. It has affected his longevity in comparison to Toney, but it is a style issue rather than a skillset issue.

**Miburo** · 07-01-2010, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by Sugarj

I'm not too blown away by Tengoshi's corrections:

I would probably edge Toney for power too, but this was a close run thing. Roy's power was down to a number of factors including timing and accuracy. His speed was amazing, but speed without technique, leverage and the obvious mass (mass x acceleration equalling force) doesn't knock guys spark out.........or in the case of poor Virgil Hill, leave you wincing in pain with a suspected broken rib!

Skillset: I dont think I've seen a finer skillset than prime Jones. Accuracy, jab, some of the finest combinations ever witnessed, the ability to fight orthodox and southpaw, defensive smarts, setting traps, the ability to fight coming forward or going back, amateur pedigree. Athleticism is not skillset! Roy's weakness was his lack of basic, classical boxing fundamentals. His reliance on reflex rather than to keep his hands up and block. But no one should confuse his unorthodox style with a lack of skillset...........just a lack of fundamentals, its not the same thing.

Roy had everything except the sort of defense that can keep you out of trouble when reflexes fade. It has affected his longevity in comparison to Toney, but it is a style issue rather than a skillset issue.

Jones was similar to Ray Robinson in terms of power, he knocked guys cold with blind punches due to speed. Virgil Hill didn't see that body shot under the jab coming, and when you get caught with shots like that in sensitive areas it's lights out. Yes it broke ribs but like any impact damage has a lot to do with whether or not you can brace for the shot as it's coming. A good example of this is the seemingly average body shot Hopkins laid DLH out with, he had no chance to brace for it. Most professionals are capable of delivering devastating blows to anyone with a blindside. Even an average person: tell someone to stand there with their eyes closed and then clock them in the chin, they will be knocked out.

Exactly, athleticism isn't a skillset, which is what I was suggesting: he didn't really have one. Jones was smart and accurate, but his style wasn't really boxing. As you said he lacked fundamentals, it was just pure athleticism translated into the forum. When you consider his reflexes, speed, and ring smarts I think it's quite legitimate to question his skillset, because what else do you really need in your prime? His body was both his defense and offense. One of the most unorthodox fighters ever.

**THE REED** · 07-01-2010, 05:34 PM

AgentSmith... you are absolutely in love with the 90's SMW era

**Sugarj** · 07-01-2010, 05:56 PM

Hi Tengoshi,

In the example of Ray Robinson, yes another fast puncher.....but as with Roy Jones, had good power too. Sadly enough to kill poor Jimmy Doyle. Speed or (acceleration) is clearly one of the factors which make a forceful impact. But theres no doubt that Roy and Ray both hit very hard too. I perhaps got the impression that you thought Roy wasn't a very concussive puncher. That speed was everything! When really fast punchers like Pernell Whitakker, Hector Camacho or even Floyd Mayweather offer rather less obvious impact than the like of Roy or Ray despite all their speed. I'm in agreement with you that Toney probably had the power edge though.

As for Roy's skillset, give him a high handed defense and what did he lack other than that? There is nothing else he didn't do to an amazing standard.

**Miburo** · 07-01-2010, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Sugarj

Hi Tengoshi,

In the example of Ray Robinson, yes another fast puncher.....but as with Roy Jones, had good power too. Sadly enough to kill poor Jimmy Doyle. Speed or (acceleration) is clearly one of the factors which make a forceful impact. But theres no doubt that Roy and Ray both hit very hard too. I perhaps got the impression that you thought Roy wasn't a very concussive puncher. That speed was everything! When really fast punchers like Pernell Whitakker, Hector Camacho or even Floyd Mayweather offer rather less obvious impact than the like of Roy or Ray despite all their speed. I'm in agreement with you that Toney probably had the power edge though.

As for Roy's skillset, give him a high handed defense and what did he lack other than that? There is nothing else he didn't do to an amazing standard.

I think SRR had more natural power than RJJ, but Robinson himself claimed he was not a hard puncher and always pointed to accurate blind shots as the reason for his high KO numbers. You mentioned the Doyle fight, but I believe that had more to do with how hard Doyle's head hit than canvas than the punch itself according to reports.

If you give Jones a high-handed defense his offense would ironically be crippled given that style (like Ali Jones utilized an extremely low guard for its offensive advantages - faster, more difficult to see punches). Those leaping left hooks especially would be telegraphed and counter-prone for any other fighter than him, they were not thrown short and textbook. His speed was so great however that it allowed them to land unexpectedly fast and from that waist-level angle would often blindside the opponent. To illustrate - if you took a relatively fast-handed fighter and had him throw a textbook hook, then had Jones throw a telegraphed one, they would land at the same time, his speed was just unreal.

**NChristo** · 07-01-2010, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by Sugarj

When really fast punchers like Pernell Whitakker, Hector Camacho or even Floyd Mayweather offer rather less obvious impact than the like of Roy or Ray despite all their speed. I'm in agreement with you that Toney probably had the power edge though.

Bit off topic but oh well, I always thought that Pernell Whitaker's punches actually had quite a lot of force behind them, he just loved the sport and to be in the ring too much and would make the fights last, rarely went for a KO.

Obviously not the hardest puncher but a lot of the punches he threw seemed to hurt the opponent.

Roy Jones vs James Toney: How could Toney of won this?