Roy Jones vs James Toney: How could Toney of won this?

[Toney616]

no.they were talking about heavyweight.

During his training camp Toneyy spoke about going up to the lhw, and fighting the likes of Hill and Darius M. He did say that he was planning to move to the hw divison at some point to fight Lewis and Tyson.

they said he was weighing around 200 before training and had to drain about 17 lbs a day before the fight.if your fighting at 168 and have to drop over 10 lbs your not making 175 either

He walked into his camp around 210 lbs, which he did for a lot of his fights.Come fight night against Jones he was around 184 lbs. He did move up to the lhw division after that, (during the post fight talks after Jones-Toney he says to Merchant that his moving to lhw) where he stayed for a while untill the Montell Griffin II fight.

[Toney616]

Whomever job it was , Jones benefitted the luxury of fighting a drained Toney.

Toney had 4 months to get ready for the fight, he only has himself to blame
In fact the negotiations for Jones-Toney had started around mid 94.

because he could not make 168 , I wonder what that contract stipulated , probably a rematch at 168.

Toney was the 168 lbs champion the contract was for a rematch at 168 lbs (how else would he win his belt back, if the rematch was at a higher weight?)
Even Toney's manager Jackie Kallen, said he could make the weight if he kept away from junk food

No. Toney was not in shape even relatively for him , a strict lie regarding my question.

Of course he was in shape you don't fight for 12 rounds, continually chasing your opponent around the ring if you are in bad shape. Watch Toney-Tiberi where he was fighting for around 20 seconds at a time and laying against the roipes.
In fact give me a few days and ill post up some pics from the weigh in

Some will say Hopkins was green against him

Hopkins was the no 2 ranked ibf contender and was around 27 years old at the time. Also according to your definition of prime you would have to class him as prime as well.

and lost twice , once as convincingly as possible , did not really win even once.

You asked how many prime skilled fighters he faced and now you are talking about the results? Jones clearly won the first fight as well.

and yet again fought an even fight in the first , and his team made sure Griffin
will not be prepared for the second.

Griffin was on the verge of getting koed in the first fight, which is why he took a dive in round 9. He was the champion so Griffin's team would of had the upper hand during the negotiations for a rematch with Jones.

Wrong.

Why dont you then tell us what he could of done differently instead?

And he had troubles making the weight even for Drake Thadzi at 175 , except then he could not even make the higher limit , so what does it suggest regarding Toney's try to make 168 for the last time ?

The Thadzi fight was in 97, around 2 years after the Jones fight, how can you use that of evidence for him not rematching Jones in 95?

Toney struggle to make weight was a symptom of his obsession with junk food, which caused him to blow up to 200 lbs plus between fights.If he watched his diet like his manager (Jackie Kallen) said that he wouldnt of had so much trouble, making weight

[frankenfrank]

Toney had 4 months to get ready for the fight, he only has himself to blame
In fact the negotiations for Jones-Toney had started around mid 94.



Toney was the 168 lbs champion the contract was for a rematch at 168 lbs (how else would he win his belt back, if the rematch was at a higher weight?)
Even Toney's manager Jackie Kallen, said he could make the weight if he kept away from junk food

Of course he was in shape you don't fight for 12 rounds, continually chasing your opponent around the ring if you are in bad shape. Watch Toney-Tiberi where he was fighting for around 20 seconds at a time and laying against the roipes.
In fact give me a few days and ill post up some pics from the weigh in

Of course it was Toney's fault he was fat but it takes nothing away from the fact that Roy beat a severely drained man and still could not stop him.
The severe draining effected Toney's performance in the ring.
Another fact is Toney fought as a LHW as soon as 1993 , and as a CW (according to your double standards) as soon as 1994 , 6 months before their
fight .
Toney was far from being in shape whomever fault it was , and in that state Jones fought him and beat him , and then denied a rematch from him , to this
day.

Hopkins was the no 2 ranked ibf contender and was around 27 years old at the time. Also according to your definition of prime you would have to class him as prime as well.

You asked how many prime skilled fighters he faced and now you are talking about the results? Jones clearly won the first fight as well.

Not clearly for sure.

Griffin was on the verge of getting koed in the first fight, which is why he took a dive in round 9. He was the champion so Griffin's team would of had the upper hand during the negotiations for a rematch with Jones.

You did not understand what did I mean , I meant Griffin was not allowed time
to get himself (his muscles) warmed in the following minutes before the fight , he was rushed to the ring. Another Jones' team scam.

Why dont you then tell us what he could of done differently instead?

He could have time Jones faster , stalk him faster , hit him faster and harder , evade punches faster and thus better , just what makes the difference , he was not as fast he he used to be in his good nights in absolute terms , whatever the reason for it was.

The Thadzi fight was in 97, around 2 years after the Jones fight, how can you use that of evidence for him not rematching Jones in 95?

Toney could not make 168 anymore.
He had do work hard to make 175 those days .
The rematch clause probably stipulated a weight limit of 168 .

Toney struggle to make weight was a symptom of his obsession with junk food, which caused him to blow up to 200 lbs plus between fights.If he watched his diet like his manager (Jackie Kallen) said that he wouldnt of had so much trouble, making weight

Does not matter the fact he was in a lousy shape inside the ring against Jones.
Jones never defeated Toney when Toney was properly prepared .

[Toney616]

Of course it was Toney's fault he was fat

In a boxing fight, the man who prepared the best should win, Jones prepared the best so he won

Another fact is Toney fought as a LHW as soon as 1993 , and as a CW (according to your double standards) as soon as 1994 , 6 months before their
fight .

Stop boxrecing
Toney was a throw back fighter, which is why he fought so often back then, those fights were non title bouts at a higher weight, so he didnt have to make weight.(Which is why those fights at higher weights were often shown on Showtime, HBO were more interested in showing his title fights)

1994-05-18 181½ Vinson Durham
1994-07-29 168 Charles Williams

The fact that he was able to get from 181.5 lbs to 168 lbs, in two moths and then fight the fight of his life against Williams hurts your case about him being drained for Jones. The Williams fight was for his 168 ibf belt

and then denied a rematch from him , to this day

Toney chose not to exercise his rematch clause, interesting that you blame Jones for that

You did not understand what did I mean , I meant Griffin was not allowed time
to get himself (his muscles) warmed in the following minutes before the fight , he was rushed to the ring. Another Jones' team scam.

How can a contender's team dictate terms to the reigning champion?

He could have time Jones faster , stalk him faster , hit him faster and harder , evade punches faster and thus better , just what makes the difference , he was not as fast he he used to be in his good nights in absolute terms ,

Toney was in top shape when he fought McCallum and struggled to time McCallum who had fast reflexes. Jones has better reflexes than McCallum

Toney was in top shape when he fought Reggie Johnson and struggled with Johnson's footspeed. Jones footspeed is just as good as Johnson

Toney was in top shape when he fought Mequai Sosa, whose unconventional style gave Toney problems, Jones style is just as unconventional as Sosa

Do you get the point?

Toney could not make 168 anymore.

Says Toney, his manager says different. Toney liked gorging on cakes (his mum owned a bakery), he also like Pizzas and cheeseburgers. He was eating cheeseburgers during his training camp for the Jones fight

He had do work hard to make 175 those days ..

Toney always struggled to make weight due to his junk food addiction, which is why he struggled to make weight, no matter what weight class he fought in

The rematch clause probably stipulated a weight limit of 168 .

How can a 168 lb fighter win his belt back, if the rematch is in another weight class?

Does not matter the fact he was in a lousy shape inside the ring against Jones.
Jones never defeated Toney when Toney was properly prepared .

Toney admitted that Jones was the better man that day - see Roy Jones Beyond the Glory

[frankenfrank]

In a boxing fight, the man who prepared the best should win, Jones prepared the best so he won

But he won against a severely drained Toney whom was far even from his selves good condition.

Stop boxrecing
Toney was a throw back fighter, which is why he fought so often back then, those fights were non title bouts at a higher weight, so he didnt have to make weight.(Which is why those fights at higher weights were often shown on Showtime, HBO were more interested in showing his title fights)

1994-05-18 181½ Vinson Durham
1994-07-29 168 Charles Williams

The fact that he was able to get from 181.5 lbs to 168 lbs, in two moths and then fight the fight of his life against Williams hurts your case about him being drained for Jones. The Williams fight was for his 168 ibf belt

I guess he had troubles making the weight against Williams too , but Williams had troubles making the 168 limit himself , it was the first time since 1979
(15 years) Williams weighed in at 168 or below .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiserweight_(boxing)

And you mentioned it for ?

Toney chose not to exercise his rematch clause, interesting that you blame Jones for that

I just stated the obvious about Toney's inability to make 168 ever again.

How can a contender's team dictate terms to the reigning champion?

Maybe you should ask Montell Griffin , or his team , or anyone who knows the facts (which may be difficult here)

Toney was in top shape when he fought McCallum and struggled to time McCallum who had fast reflexes. Jones has better reflexes than McCallum

Most of Toney's performances in those weights were hindered by his perpetual draining.

Toney was in top shape when he fought Reggie Johnson and struggled with Johnson's footspeed. Jones footspeed is just as good as Johnson

Toney also had weight making troubles against Johnson , only in that case it was a 160 limit.

Toney was in top shape when he fought Mequai Sosa, whose unconventional style gave Toney problems, Jones style is just as unconventional as Sosa

Do you get the point?

Remember Toney won against Sosa and even scored a KD.

Says Toney, his manager says different. Toney liked gorging on cakes (his mum owned a bakery), he also like Pizzas and cheeseburgers. He was eating cheeseburgers during his training camp for the Jones fight

Do you try to reinforce my claims here ?

Toney always struggled to make weight due to his junk food addiction, which is why he struggled to make weight, no matter what weight class he fought in

How can a 168 lb fighter win his belt back, if the rematch is in another weight class?

I believe he cared (and still cares) more about beating Jones back than gaining his old title back , you know he won a title at a higher weight since then.

Toney admitted that Jones was the better man that day - see Roy Jones Beyond the Glory

Which was because Toney was drained in the ring against Jones.

[Toney616]

Most of Toney's performances in those weights were hindered by his perpetual draining.

So when he wins its not a problem, but when he loses it doesnt count because he was drained?

Toney also had weight making troubles against Johnson , only in that case it was a 160 limit.

He was in the best shape of his life, which is why he was able to chase Johnson for the whole 12 rounds

Remember Toney won against Sosa and even scored a KD.

Stop boxrecing and just watch the fight instead

Do you try to reinforce my claims here ?

Toney trained like that for ALL of his fights, when he wins its no problem, but when he loses its not the real him, he was drained

I believe he cared (and still cares) more about beating Jones back than gaining his old title back , you know he won a title at a higher weight since then.

stop boxrecing
I have to be one of the biggest toney fans on this site, which is why I bought a book which covered his career around the early 90's, including the time around the jones fight. You cannot tell me anything I dont already know especially when all of your info is from boxrec

Which was because Toney was drained in the ring against Jones.

You dont know wht you are talking about
He was drained but had the energy to chase his opponent around the ring for 12 rounds. He always struggled to make weight, but when he wins its not a problem but when he loses its the weight drain? Ok then

From now on any of your reply which are just from boxrec will be ignored

[Toney616]

toney would have to fight roy at a higher weight, much higher, i don't see him having much of a chance at 168, because of the speed and workrate advantange that jones has.

I agree as well. Which version of the fight did you watch? I would recommend watching the TVKO version with Joe Goosen commentating

the winnable fight for toney is to fight roy at 190+ lbs after he fought john ruiz, the cruiserweight / hw toney has the best chance because roy will be slower and less active from bulking up and can be caught clean in counters. if both weighed 200 lbs the speed difference between roy and james isn't as much

It would still be a damned tough fight for Toney, shame it didnt happen

[frankenfrank]

So when he wins its not a problem, but when he loses it doesnt count because he was drained?

His wins were despite him being drained , only in a few of them he was not drained.

He was in the best shape of his life, which is why he was able to chase Johnson for the whole 12 rounds

I am not sure about it , fact he had the Tiberi performance not a lot after it.

Stop boxrecing and just watch the fight instead

So you will tell me again which fights I watched and which I did not ?

Toney trained like that for ALL of his fights, when he wins its no problem, but when he loses its not the real him, he was drained

Not for all of them , maybe he was drained every time , but not in that magnitude.

stop boxrecing
I have to be one of the biggest toney fans on this site, which is why I bought a book which covered his career around the early 90's, including the time around the jones fight. You cannot tell me anything I dont already know especially when all of your info is from boxrec

And now you tell me where my info is from .

You dont know wht you are talking about
He was drained but had the energy to chase his opponent around the ring for 12 rounds. He always struggled to make weight, but when he wins its not a problem but when he loses its the weight drain? Ok then

And keep repeating your questions and your claims.

From now on any of your reply which are just from boxrec will be ignored

[Toney616]

His wins were despite him being drained , only in a few of them he was not drained.

He cant have it both ways, when he stepped into the ring with Jones his record was 44-0-2 so it couldnt of been much of a problem for him

I am not sure about it , fact he had the Tiberi performance not a lot after it.

Theres more to that fight than meets the eye, thats all im going to say on that

So you will tell me again which fights I watched and which I did not ?

Its obvious to me when you are boxrecing due to the lack of detail in your posts

Not for all of them , maybe he was drained every time , but not in that magnitude.

Stop

Go to 7:23

And now you tell me where my info is from .

Its obvious where your info is from:Boxrec and Wikipedia

[frankenfrank]

He cant have it both ways, when he stepped into the ring with Jones his record was 44-0-2 so it couldnt of been much of a problem for him

It was a new record for his draining.

Theres more to that fight than meets the eye, thats all im going to say on that
Its obvious to me when you are boxrecing due to the lack of detail in your posts

OK , you got me , I haven't watched neither Jones not Toney fight .
But my claims still suffice to prove you wrong , no matter what they are based on.

Stop

Go to 7:23

And your reason to posting it is ?

Its obvious where your info is from:Boxrec and Wikipedia

Actually my information is from my imagination