What would Prime Tyson vs Prime Tua be like?

[frankenfrank]

OK I think i'll leave it that you don't really know the concept of what is a prime fighter.
I'll have one more attempt, who would win out of the Tyson that beat Seldon and the Tyson that beat say Biggs?

I don't know , probably the one who beat Biggs but it is not like 5 out of 5.

[frankenfrank]

Will admit I didn't look, time flies!
I'm not the one trying to say Wlad has been prime for 10 years

The thing about it is even if Wlad just hit the end of his tenth years of his prime which suppose just ended then according to this the Puritty loss is still not included . So maybe he has already more than 10 years of prime , or maybe I just didn't consider the Wlad who lost to Puritty as prime , either way , you are wrong.

[Toney616]

How do you know which fights I watched and which I didn't ?

Spinks , Holyfield1 , Douglas , Bruno 1,2 , Berbick , Smith , Buster Mathis jr. , Frazier jr. , Seldon , Tillman (both amateurs and the pro fight) , Orlin Norris ,
and a few more which I forgot against whom.

Your post right?

No go quote me and find I watched the Holmes fight.

Spinks , Holyfield1 , Douglas , Bruno 1,2 , Berbick , Smith , Buster Mathis jr. , Frazier jr. , Seldon , Tillman (both amateurs and the pro fight) , Orlin Norris ,
and a few more which I forgot against whom.

Nope, not listed here

And what does it prove ? nothing. Tyson's defensive skills checked by a 39 years old fighter whom was never one of the quickest nor one of the
hardest punching even during his prime ?
You could prove nothing.

I take it from this that you haven't watched the fight.

You proved nothing again .
But you never heard of his other fights do you ?

Evander Holyfield W 12
Evander Holyfield L TKO
George Foreman L KO 10
David Tua L KO 1
These are the best 4 guys he faced at hw, and his 1-3 against them
It was also obvious from Holyfield I, that he was never going to be good at HW, as I stated before

Jones was far from a MW when he faced Ruiz , he was a bulked formerly fully fledged LHW : more massive than Bob Foster and Harold Johnson whom had careers at HW.

As fighters move up the weight classes, their KO rates drop due to the fact that their naturally bigger opponents can take their punches. I cant think of many MW's who moved up to HW and were considered big hitters, can you?
Jones was never a big LHW either, come fight night he was always around the 180 lbs mark

Haye was actually bigger than Ruiz, whom in turn was just fatter ,
you failed again.

We are talking about the same Haye who couldn't even stop an old Thompson right? The same Thompson that was almost koed by a MW(Eubank)
As for the rest, lets see how many ko's Haye gets when he fights some decent HW fighters

Another thing is Ruiz was really removed from his prime when he faced Haye.

You don't understand what the word prime means

Keep comparing Moorer to all time top 10 HWs.

The post I was originally replying to

Against whom was he KO'd ? how many fighters throughout history wouldn't have been stopped by them ?

and in the latter 90's as well.

If you say so

Byrd might have outpointed the older and slower Lewis

Doesn't matter, Lewis moaned when Bowe wouldn't give him a shot and he basically did the same thing Bowe did himself

, Lewis avoided a rematch with Vitali , did not win convincingly in the first fight ,

That fight was about his legacy, even Manny was disappointed with the way Lewis behaved

but would have been a top 10 all time heavy even if he lost a close decision to the younger Byrd , losing a close controversial decision (the maximum Byrd could achieve against Lewis) does not detract too much from a fighter.

Who cares about his overall ranking? We are talking about the principal of the matter

Had he lost convincingly to Vitali in the rematch it could still be claimed Lewis was removed from his prime.

It doesn't matter if he was removed from his prime or not, wins against past prime fighters count as well

Which is one of the reasons to why you never post your top 10 list ?
cause you know it will be too ludicrous or will you copy paste some ole fart's list , and change the ordering ?

So to be a boxing fan, I have to start making ATG/H2H lists?

1. Vitali Klitschko
2. George Foreman
3. Mike Tyson
4. Muhammad Ali
5. Lennox Lewis
6. Larry Holmes
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Oliver McCall
9. David Tua
10. Evander Holyfield

My list couldn't be any worse than this, that's for sure.

According to you no fighter throughout the history known to you is worth mentioning for this reason or another. yet an aged 39 Holmes , Mitch Green and another someone are extremely worth mentioning .

Your reasoning is all over the damned place, I pointed out some fights where Tyson's defensive capabilities were on display. I NEVER said that Green and a past prime Holmes were great fighters

Yet still Holmes managed to stop that Smith twice and Tyson couldn't.

I said that the Tyson-Smith fight isn't a good fight to evaluate Tysons skill set and now you are talking about Holmes stopping Smith twice?

Larry Holmes:
height 6′ 3″
reach 81″

Bonecrusher smith:
height 6′ 4″
reach 82″

Mike Tyson:
height 5′ 10″
reach 71″
From these stats its obvious that Smiths fight Plan against Tyson couldn't work against Holmes. The first fight with Smith was stopped on cuts, but you wouldn't know that by looking up boxrec stats.

[Toney616]

Berbick was not scared, I wonder when was the last time you watched it.

I take that to mean you haven't watched that fight then

You estimate Tyson's expected performance against Tua from his performance against much worse opponents than these.

We are talking about Tyson from the 80's and I have pointed out that those fights you have watched are not good fights to evaluate Tyson's skill set.
I evaluated Tua's skill set from his fights with: Ruiz, Ike and Byrd. Ruiz is dreadful but Byrd and Ike were top fighters

It is an important part of it.

Let me know how many posters on this board would agree with you on this

Very close to prime , so yes.
"Lost his legs" , nice words from someone whom probably didn't see more than 2 post exile fights of Ali.

Ali's footwork was his main form of defense, he no longer had the stamina post exile to dance for the whole 15 rounds, which is why he started to take so much punishment during the latter half of his career. It's also the reason he started to clinch and Rope-a-dope so much

No , but he was still weakened by the muscle loss[ , not too much of a good shape , so your argument isn't too valid here either.

He was weakened for one fight (which he won), he was physically fine after that. His downfall really started after he was koed by Tarver and lost the confidence in his chin. He was never the same after that. So he was fine physically in the fact that he could fight for 12 rounds, but he was finished as a elite fighter after that.

For the record I would say Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight

Yes , maybe not 100% but close to it.

Frazier was past prime, after taking so much punishment to the head that he was in hospital for 6-8 weeks. He was never the same after that, although he still had enough left in the tank to hold his own against the guys out there

You know fighters today someone take a year and above hiatuses just for recuperation , healing , career problems , waiting for other fighters etc.
Watch Jirov's performance against Toney after a 18 months layoff.

What has this got to do with anything?
Being a short fighter meant that Tyson had to train at least twice as hard as the other hws out there. Anyone who paid close attention to his fights could see when he started to slide, which was during the Bruno fight, where he was getting hit with punches he would of slipped in his prime

I don't remember every name but I think watched more than 5 of his fights from the 80's alone. I wonder how many of them did you watch and how many other fighter's fights which you overwhelmingly discredit you watched

You claim this but the facts speak otherwise, you keep on talking about Tyson from 1990-2002

If I don't like a fighters style, then I won't watch many of their fights, it's that simple

As I said before, his prime was considered to be from Berbick to Spinks, I have already pointed out the reasons why the fights you have watched are not good examples to evaluate Tyson's skill set.

True I never was in his training camps , but so weren't you,

I don't have to be to know what happened in them. I have read articles/books from: Atlas, Roach, Rooney and Lott. As well as read books where the writers spent time in his training camps

and him being in shape does reveal something about what he did there , doesn't it ?

Because a guy can fight 12 rounds doesn't mean they are in there prime. Benn was shot after McClellan but could still fight 12 rounds

So now you know my age too ? I probably finished high school before you learned to divide numbers , but what does it prove ?
There are people much older than me here whom will tell you Brian London , Jerry Quarry and Joe Louis would have KTFO David Tua , and they probably watched some 20-50 fights more than I did but what does it prove about their perception of reality or about their lists ?

In order to properly evaluate a fighters resume/skill set you have to watch a large number of their fights, which takes time. Which is why I talked about age, you come across to me as someone who spends to much time on Boxrec

Really ? were there thousands of that important HW fights alone throught history ?
I compiled a HW all time list , not a P4P / all weights list.

You never specified what type of list you made, most people when talking about ATG lists, generally mean resume wise lists

I also wonder how many here actually watched thousand let alone thousands of fights. I watched dozens , probably more than 100.
And I watched almost each one more than 3 times in average.
It helps to prevent typing bs like you do.

This coming from someone who claims that Tyson was prime for 10 years

Cause Tyson was unstoppable in his prime , right ?

I never said that

A prime Tyson could KO a tiger with the whistling of his missed punches .
After all , you watched his fights against Green and someone.
You don't even consider the 18 pro fights (according to you) Tyson whom fought Jesse Fergusson as prime and you decided Berbick was terrified of him despite you claim you watched that fight.

So a green contender whose around 19 years old is considered prime to you? Great stuff

Tell me is that the Berbick fight were Berbick basically just held on for dear life, barely made it out of the first round and was koed in the second round, by a glancing uppercut?

When was the last time you did ?

I watched Byrd-Tua about a week ago

So now you will tell me to watch every single Tyson fight I haven't seen yet just to face the awe of Tyson which BTW I never doubted ?

I mentioned about 6 fights, hardly every single Tyson fight

How many Tua fights have you seen ?

3 fights: Ike, Ruiz, Byrd

And I never repeated any Teddy Atlas sentence as I don't remember any and never heard too much from.

This is Teddy Atlas nonsense

(1) Almost every opponent of his during his prime especially was terrified of Tyson .

[irishdude]

Tyson would embarrass Tua. Tua was totally one dimensional with no moviement, speed, and fought with one hand. Tyson would punish him until an eventual KO came about.

Tua has virtually no chance, not even a punchers chance with Tyson's chin.

There's a reason Tua was never champion.

TBH he lose on a split decision to Lewis, while Tyson was KO'd by Lewis 2 years later. I know it was a well past Tyson, but still.

For some reason Tua was 247 for that fight. He looked a bit flabby, but in his first fight he was 204lbs. In comparison Tyson was never below the 213 mark, was 221 when he won the title against Berbick.

[frankenfrank]

Your post right?

should I bold my entire text for you to be able to see I wrote I watched other fights which I may have forgot to mention.
Well , I watched the Holmes fight and I asked you about it :
do you evaluate Tyson's defensive abilities upon a fight against a 39 years old fighter whom was never a hard hitter nor one of the quickest to begin with ?

Nope, not listed here

I take it from this that you haven't watched the fight.

Evander Holyfield W 12
Evander Holyfield L TKO
George Foreman L KO 10
David Tua L KO 1
These are the best 4 guys he faced at hw, and his 1-3 against them
It was also obvious from Holyfield I, that he was never going to be good at HW, as I stated before

These are the best indeed , in fact too good.
But just the best he fought , well , I watched the Cooper fight , but not the Holyfield1 fight as I am not interested to see him barely eek a probably undeserved decision over a man with heart problems.
But besides of what we watched combined , he fought more dangerous
contenders and prospects of his time , and lost only to the best which were also the best in all time scale , so it does not make him such a chinny light punching fighter as you try to portray him.

As fighters move up the weight classes, their KO rates drop due to the fact that their naturally bigger opponents can take their punches. I cant think of many MW's who moved up to HW and were considered big hitters, can you?
Jones was never a big LHW either, come fight night he was always around the 180 lbs mark

We are talking about the same Haye who couldn't even stop an old Thompson right?

Not really . He gained yet even more muscle / power and experience since then. not exactly the same Haye.

The same Thompson that was almost koed by a MW(Eubank)

But stopped Eubank instead of being stopped

As for the rest, lets see how many ko's Haye gets when he fights some decent HW fighters

He was young , fresh and strong compared to Ruiz at that point ,
but the Ruiz whom fought Tua was young and fresh as Tua was at that point.

You don't understand what the word prime means

The post I was originally replying to


If you say so

Doesn't matter, Lewis moaned when Bowe wouldn't give him a shot and he basically did the same thing Bowe did himself

That fight was about his legacy, even Manny was disappointed with the way Lewis behaved

Who cares about his overall ranking? We are talking about the principal of the matter

It doesn't matter if he was removed from his prime or not, wins against past prime fighters count as well

Depends on how much removed from their prime they are.

So to be a boxing fan, I have to start making ATG/H2H lists?

I already answered it. You have the tendency to repeat every second question you raise twice and every fifth 3 times.
Rarely you even repeat them more than 3 times , allow me to avoid answering in some of these cases in the future without stating it in advance.

My list couldn't be any worse than this, that's for sure.

Well , it would have definitely been if it was or if it will ever exist. :yep:

Your reasoning is all over the damned place, I pointed out some fights where Tyson's defensive capabilities were on display. I NEVER said that Green and a past prime Holmes were great fighters

No , you didn't , but you base your argument about his defensive capabilities upon his fights against them , which would not have resembled Tua in no way , even if Holmes was prime , by the way.
And another thing is : you try to accuse me of underrating Tyson's defensive capabilities , which I don't.

I said that the Tyson-Smith fight isn't a good fight to evaluate Tysons skill set and now you are talking about Holmes stopping Smith twice?

You can keep saying , but my arguments about it remained solid.

Larry Holmes:
height 6′ 3″
reach 81″

Bonecrusher smith:
height 6′ 4″
reach 82″

Mike Tyson:
height 5′ 10″
reach 71″
From these stats its obvious that Smiths fight Plan against Tyson couldn't work against Holmes.

Never detracted anything form Tyson as a P4P fighter ,
not even as a H2H HW fighter ,
it is what you should remind every time you try to overrate him like you
do.

The first fight with Smith was stopped on cuts, but you wouldn't know that by looking up boxrec stats.

OK , and the second (in which Smith was older than he was against Tyson , but still 4 years younger than Holmes) ?

[frankenfrank]

I take that to mean you haven't watched that fight then

Take what you want , I still watched the fight , maybe you should refresh
your memory or something

We are talking about Tyson from the 80's and I have pointed out that those fights you have watched are not good fights to evaluate Tyson's skill set.
I evaluated Tua's skill set from his fights with: Ruiz, Ike and Byrd. Ruiz is dreadful but Byrd and Ike were top fighters

Ignored due to you not having sorted list of fighters.
See , you can detract Ruiz , Moorer , Maskaev , Fres Oquendo , David Izon , Obed Sullivan , Darroll Wilson , Nate Tubbs and Jeff Wooden (a decision win for Tua for a change) and others which are amongst others
(currently except Tubbs ) are fights I watched , but they were still worth what they were , which you have no clue about , so I will suffice with this.

Let me know how many posters on this board would agree with you on this

Ali's footwork was his main form of defense, he no longer had the stamina post exile to dance for the whole 15 rounds, which is why he started to take so much punishment during the latter half of his career. It's also the reason he started to clinch and Rope-a-dope so much

He was weakened for one fight (which he won), he was physically fine after that. His downfall really started after he was koed by Tarver and lost the confidence in his chin. He was never the same after that. So he was fine physically in the fact that he could fight for 12 rounds, but he was finished as a elite fighter after that.

For the record I would say Jones was past prime by the Harmon fight

Frazier was past prime, after taking so much punishment to the head that he was in hospital for 6-8 weeks. He was never the same after that, although he still had enough left in the tank to hold his own against the guys out there

Which means : prime Frazier definitely KO1 superman , OK , just sayin.

What has this got to do with anything?
Being a short fighter meant that Tyson had to train at least twice as hard as the other hws out there. Anyone who paid close attention to his fights could see when he started to slide, which was during the Bruno fight, where he was getting hit with punches he would of slipped in his prime

Woulda coulda shoulda , Tyson was prime against Bruno in their first fight , it is even an 80's Tyson.

You claim this but the facts speak otherwise, you keep on talking about Tyson from 1990-2002

Bruno1 , Smith , Tucker , Berbick , Holmes , and then some more I watched are an 80's Tyson which some of them you still disregard ,
as after all , prime Tyson KO1 superman.

If I don't like a fighters style, then I won't watch many of their fights, it's that simple

I join this , which is why I haven't watched "enough" of Holmes.
But since this declaration and since your other declaration about not even trying to sort a list , don't try to evaluate them as I now explain for about the 6th time , no exaggeration .

As I said before, his prime was considered to be from Berbick to Spinks, I have already pointed out the reasons why the fights you have watched are not good examples to evaluate Tyson's skill set.

I don't care what you call Tyson's prime , tell it to someone else.

I don't have to be to know what happened in them. I have read articles/books from: Atlas, Roach, Rooney and Lott. As well as read books where the writers spent time in his training camps

Because a guy can fight 12 rounds doesn't mean they are in there prime. Benn was shot after McClellan but could still fight 12 rounds

In order to properly evaluate a fighters resume/skill set you have to watch a large number of their fights, which takes time. Which is why I talked about age, you come across to me as someone who spends to much time on Boxrec

Watching the fights is important , but boxrec , wikipedia , and other written sources are still better than nothing most of the time.

You never specified what type of list you made, most people when talking about ATG lists, generally mean resume wise lists

Well , I did , and I stated it was H2H .
You will probably base your list upon charisma and personal charm.

This coming from someone who claims that Tyson was prime for 10 years

I never said that

So a green contender whose around 19 years old is considered prime to you? Great stuff

Tell me is that the Berbick fight were Berbick basically just held on for dear life, barely made it out of the first round and was koed in the second round, by a glancing uppercut?

I watched Byrd-Tua about a week ago

I mentioned about 6 fights, hardly every single Tyson fight

3 fights: Ike, Ruiz, Byrd

This is Teddy Atlas nonsense

I watched about 10 Tua fights , and I don't care if by some case I happened to say the same things as Teddy Atlas , I did not take it from him.

[SBleeder]

As I said before, his prime was considered to be from Berbick to Spinks

This is utter nonsense. His prime ended when he went to prison, not at some arbitrary spot where he decided he was going to start taking it easy.

[Vadrigar.]

This is utter nonsense. His prime ended when he went to prison, not at some arbitrary spot where he decided he was going to start taking it easy.

Well if you take it easy consistently, than it's quite reasonable to suggest that your reflexes, stamina etc.. can decrease by a small amount. I'm not sure how much you can build on this, though.

[Toney616]

This is utter nonsense. His prime ended when he went to prison, not at some arbitrary spot where he decided he was going to start taking it easy.

lol at the Tyson hater

His prime ended after the Spinks fight, his reflexes had slowed down as was obvious to see in the Bruno I fight. He never trained hard enough after the Spinks fight to maintain the same level he had achieved before and during it